Live from The Atlantic Festival ‘2026 Is the Battlefield’
01:05:
(Hannah Rosen)
I'm Hannah Rosen.
01:06:
(Hannah Rosen)
This is Radio Atlantic.
01:08:
(Hannah Rosen)
Today we have a special live show as part of the Atlantic Festival in New York.
01:14:
(Hannah Rosen)
Welcome everyone.
01:15:
(Hannah Rosen)
We have with us staff writer Anne Applebaum who writes about the rise of autocracy,
01:27:
(Hannah Rosen)
and Gary Kasparov, chess world champion who runs the Renew Democracy Initiative.
01:33:
(Hannah Rosen)
They are both hosts of season one and two of Autocracy in America, which is an amazing show, but also a show which I'm hoping there won't be like,
01:42:
(Hannah Rosen)
Too many more scenes and stuff?
01:45:
(Hannah Rosen)
Like, what will we be talking about in season 32 of Autocracy in America?
01:50:
(Hannah Rosen)
I shudder to think what the topics will be.
01:53:
(Hannah Rosen)
So, Anne, welcome to the show.
01:55:
(Hannah Rosen)
Thank you.
01:56:
(Hannah Rosen)
Gary, welcome to the show.
01:57:
(Gary Kasparov)
Thank you.
01:58:
(Gary Kasparov)
Just one correction.
01:59:
(Gary Kasparov)
There will be no—impossible.
02:01:
(Gary Kasparov)
You cannot have too many shows, Autocracy in America, for a simple reason.
02:04:
(Gary Kasparov)
Either we stop it, or there will be no shows because they won.
02:08:
(Hannah Rosen)
Oh, I see.
02:08:
(Hannah Rosen)
They're going to cut your show off.
02:10:
(Hannah Rosen)
So it's not going to be like live from the Gulag, a secret episode of Autocracy in America.
02:15:
(Hannah Rosen)
Too soon.
02:16:
(Hannah Rosen)
OK, too soon for that.
02:19:
(Hannah Rosen)
The two of you have been talking about threats to democracy for a long time.
02:23:
(Hannah Rosen)
You started talking about them outside the United States.
02:26:
(Hannah Rosen)
Now we're unfortunately talking about them inside the United States.
02:30:
(Hannah Rosen)
Every week we seem to see a ratcheting up, but this week felt like new territory.
02:35:
(Hannah Rosen)
So Anne, when you saw the news about ABC and Jimmy Kimmel, what is the first thing that came to your mind?
02:40:
(Hannah Rosen)
What did you think of?
02:41:
(Ann Applebaum)
The first thing that came to my head, and I have no doubt it was the first thing that came to Gary's head as well, was the memory of Vladimir Putin pushing the satirical program Kukli, which means puppets, off the air in Russia.
02:56:
(Ann Applebaum)
Dictators don't like satire.
02:59:
(Ann Applebaum)
They don't like being made fun of.
03:01:
(Ann Applebaum)
Putin in particular didn't like this puppet that was made to look like him.
03:04:
(Ann Applebaum)
And we even know how he did it.
03:07:
(Ann Applebaum)
He sent a letter to the television station that had this satirical program.
03:11:
(Ann Applebaum)
and made them take it off.
03:13:
(Ann Applebaum)
I mean, this, in the United States, it went a little bit more circular.
03:17:
(Ann Applebaum)
I mean, it was a threat from the FCC, you know, that was made on a podcast, and then it was interpreted by the corporate owners of a television station, and it led them to fire
03:28:
(Ann Applebaum)
Jimmy Kimmel.
03:29:
(Ann Applebaum)
But what's important, I think, about this in both cases is that this is the way modern censorship works.
03:36:
(Ann Applebaum)
So we all probably have in your head an idea from if you read 1984 or a novel about dictatorship, you imagine censorship as there's a guy in a room and he gets all the newspapers in advance and he crosses out stuff with a pencil and that's censorship.
03:51:
(Ann Applebaum)
Actually, nowadays, if you look at Russia, if you look at Hungary, if you look at Turkey,
03:55:
(Ann Applebaum)
Censorship is the government putting pressure often on private companies to adjust their programming, and that is what we are now seeing here.
04:06:
(Hannah Rosen)
Gary, I don't know that for the rest of us the first thing that came into our heads was Kukli.
04:11:
(Hannah Rosen)
So maybe you can explain what Kukli is.
04:13:
(Hannah Rosen)
Do you have a memory of it?
04:14:
(Hannah Rosen)
I just want to raise it in people's imagination.
04:17:
(Gary Kasparov)
What is it?
04:18:
(Gary Kasparov)
Thank you very much for reminding me about the golden era in Russia.
04:21:
(Gary Kasparov)
It was a very short one.
04:23:
(Gary Kasparov)
So the so-called tumultuous 90s.
04:25:
(Gary Kasparov)
It was feeble democracy, but it was freedom of speech.
04:29:
(Gary Kasparov)
Actually, Kukli was on air for six years.
04:31:
(Gary Kasparov)
And they have been, I mean, pushing really the limits.
04:34:
(Gary Kasparov)
I mean, they attacked Yeltsin, they mocked him and Yeltsin, some of the Yeltsin's closest advisors.
04:43:
(Gary Kasparov)
Actually, Yeltsin's attorney general, 1995, tried to shut down Cookley, but he lost his job.
04:50:
(Gary Kasparov)
And naturally, Putin hated it.
04:53:
(Hannah Rosen)
And was it like what we are familiar with, like Jon Stewart, Jimmy Kimmel?
04:57:
(Gary Kasparov)
They were puppets.
04:58:
(Gary Kasparov)
But trust me, in many instances, they went much further than Kimmel or Stewart.
05:04:
(Gary Kasparov)
So it was really tough.
05:07:
(Gary Kasparov)
And again, I think maybe the Yelts don't like it.
05:09:
(Gary Kasparov)
Like he found it funny.
05:11:
(Gary Kasparov)
But again, fact is that nobody tried to touch them after 1995.
05:16:
(Gary Kasparov)
The attorney general failed.
05:17:
(Gary Kasparov)
So it was number one target for Putin.
05:21:
(Gary Kasparov)
He actually did two things after being, quote unquote, elected the president of the Russian Federation.
05:26:
(Gary Kasparov)
One is he restored Soviet anthem.
05:28:
(Gary Kasparov)
just to send a signal.
05:29:
(Gary Kasparov)
That's what was in mind.
05:30:
(Gary Kasparov)
With new words, with new lyrics.
05:32:
(Gary Kasparov)
No, no, but this music.
05:34:
(Gary Kasparov)
Everybody heard it, yes.
05:36:
(Gary Kasparov)
It's still imperial.
05:37:
(Hannah Rosen)
What's the music?
05:38:
(Hannah Rosen)
Do you remember?
05:38:
(Hannah Rosen)
Is it like in print?
05:39:
(Hannah Rosen)
Of course we know.
05:41:
(Gary Kasparov)
That wasn't that good.
05:47:
(Gary Kasparov)
And then you went after Cookley, after the show, and
05:50:
(Gary Kasparov)
As a matter of fact, he used similar tactics because it was not just a letter.
05:54:
(Gary Kasparov)
It was all about business quarrel because this company that had quickly owned money and it sounds familiar, huh?
06:02:
(Gary Kasparov)
So that's what immediately came to my mind because I said, wow, it's all business.
06:07:
(Gary Kasparov)
That's how they always start.
06:09:
(Gary Kasparov)
And Putin kept repeating it.
06:11:
(Gary Kasparov)
Even, you know, just when Bush 43 asked him, he said, no, no, no, it was business.
06:15:
(Gary Kasparov)
Yes, look, there was a company and it was fair.
06:18:
(Gary Kasparov)
They said they owned money to Gazprom.
06:20:
(Gary Kasparov)
yeah you've used the phrase the putinization of america yep i i saw the signs i saw the signs i did say yeah it's people people always say no america is not russia absolutely but you know even back in 2016 i wrote that americans would very soon discover that so many things that they believe were carved in stone it's actually based on traditions it's not codified it's
06:44:
(Hannah Rosen)
Wait, but I want to talk about this because they are different countries.
06:48:
(Hannah Rosen)
Like Putin's a KGB official.
06:50:
(Hannah Rosen)
That's what he has in his history.
06:51:
(Hannah Rosen)
Trump is a reality TV star.
06:53:
(Hannah Rosen)
We do have different histories and cultures.
06:55:
(Hannah Rosen)
Our Constitution is different.
06:57:
(Hannah Rosen)
Like it is built for tests.
06:59:
(Hannah Rosen)
They're not exactly the same.
07:01:
(Hannah Rosen)
So sometimes I go along with you two and sometimes I think they're different.
07:06:
(Gary Kasparov)
Again, it's the Constitution.
07:07:
(Gary Kasparov)
It's both letter and spirit.
07:11:
(Gary Kasparov)
I think there's so much in America is built on the spirit.
07:14:
(Gary Kasparov)
Nobody ever did it before.
07:16:
(Gary Kasparov)
For instance, every candidate released his or her taxes.
07:20:
(Gary Kasparov)
Trump said that.
07:22:
(Gary Kasparov)
No.
07:23:
(Gary Kasparov)
And so many things that are happening now, it's just within his powers.
07:27:
(Gary Kasparov)
I said it just after his second coming.
07:31:
(Gary Kasparov)
So that's the big danger.
07:32:
(Gary Kasparov)
It would not be just what he could do illegally, but what he can do within his legal powers.
07:38:
(Gary Kasparov)
Because there's so many loopholes.
07:39:
(Gary Kasparov)
There's a gray area.
07:41:
(Gary Kasparov)
So yes, the Constitution is offering us the means to resist, but it doesn't specifically preclude him of doing things.
07:48:
(Gary Kasparov)
And also Donald Trump, give him credit, is a genius of normalizing things that we thought would never happen in this country.
07:54:
(Gary Kasparov)
I mean, what does Watergate?
07:55:
(Gary Kasparov)
It happens every day now.
07:57:
(Gary Kasparov)
So this is in 50 years, you know, something that led to the resignation of the president is absolutely ignored.
08:03:
(Gary Kasparov)
And every day Trump is pushing a little bit, you know, this step by step in this direction.
08:08:
(Gary Kasparov)
And the Constitution does not defend itself.
08:11:
(Gary Kasparov)
In my next article, I'm saying it's just a piece of paper.
08:14:
(Gary Kasparov)
It's not ironclad.
08:15:
(Gary Kasparov)
It doesn't defend itself.
08:17:
(Gary Kasparov)
It offers you an opportunity to build your fortifications.
08:20:
(Gary Kasparov)
But unless you are engaged, it says he can go around.
08:25:
(Ann Applebaum)
The other point to make is that, of course, America and Russia are different, but the pattern of how an elected leader takes over a political system, takes over a democratic system and changes its nature, is something that we've seen before in countries that are also radically different.
08:45:
(Ann Applebaum)
a version of this in Poland.
08:47:
(Ann Applebaum)
Then it lasted for eight years and then there was an election and it changed and so on.
08:52:
(Ann Applebaum)
We watched it in Turkey.
08:53:
(Ann Applebaum)
We watched it in Hungary.
08:54:
(Ann Applebaum)
We watched it in Russia.
08:56:
(Ann Applebaum)
There's a version of it actually in India.
08:57:
(Ann Applebaum)
So Americans like to think that they're exceptional and special and we have a long history and so on.
09:04:
(Ann Applebaum)
But when we look at what Trump and I think it's more the people around him are doing, we see them following these exact patterns and we're not seeing the institutions resist.
09:15:
(Ann Applebaum)
Mostly we're not seeing Congress resist because the way our Constitution is written, the checks and balances are the other two branches of government.
09:24:
(Ann Applebaum)
And one of them is done a bit, the judiciary, that story hasn't played itself out yet.
09:29:
(Ann Applebaum)
But what's really missing is Congress.
09:32:
(Ann Applebaum)
And that speaks to a deeper problem, which is that there's clearly a, I don't know what the right terminology, whether it's decay or decline or deterioration.
09:43:
(Ann Applebaum)
So the thing that Thomas Jefferson once talked about is democratic virtue or democratic spirit.
09:48:
(Ann Applebaum)
we see is now missing in at least one or a part of one of our political parties.
09:54:
(Ann Applebaum)
We don't see Republicans who are willing to say this is against the Constitution.
09:59:
(Ann Applebaum)
Congress has the right to determine tariffs and taxes, not the president.
10:04:
(Ann Applebaum)
Congress has the right to decide what happens to government agencies and what they're meant to be doing and who's supposed to work for them.
10:11:
(Ann Applebaum)
Congress decides what happens in civil service and they have decided to let these things go and let the president do it.
10:17:
(Ann Applebaum)
So that's the, you know, it's not that Americans are Russians or America's like Russia or American history resembles Russian history.
10:22:
(Ann Applebaum)
It's just that the same kinds of tactics that we saw in places like Russia and elsewhere are playing out here and we're not seeing the resistance that you would expect.
10:32:
(Hannah Rosen)
Can I try one more argument for American exceptionalism?
10:36:
(Hannah Rosen)
Not the J.D.
10:37:
(Hannah Rosen)
Vance version of American exceptionalism, more the Thomas Jefferson version.
10:41:
(Hannah Rosen)
I recently reread the Declaration of Independence.
10:44:
(Hannah Rosen)
I think you did something like this, too.
10:46:
(Hannah Rosen)
The difference is America's founding did happen on a very specific date, at a very specific time, with a very specific idea.
10:53:
(Hannah Rosen)
And I encourage you all to go read the Declaration of Independence.
10:58:
(Hannah Rosen)
It's a boring thing to say, but just do it.
11:00:
(Hannah Rosen)
Because you are reading about Trump, like everything they are saying about the king's power down to tariffs.
11:07:
(Hannah Rosen)
So that actually gave me a lot of hope because I thought we knew that this was coming.
11:13:
(Hannah Rosen)
Gary, you're already nodding your head.
11:14:
(Hannah Rosen)
Why not?
11:15:
(Gary Kasparov)
I also read it a few times recently, but I came to the opposite conclusion.
11:21:
(Gary Kasparov)
Yes, you're right.
11:22:
(Gary Kasparov)
It's all about Trump.
11:23:
(Gary Kasparov)
But the problem is we are seeing the growing number of people, mostly on one side, that are willing to defend this practice.
11:31:
(Gary Kasparov)
They are no longer afraid of that.
11:33:
(Gary Kasparov)
So if you want to understand how this administration works, just think about the hearings in the Senate.
11:40:
(Gary Kasparov)
FBI director was insulting sitting senators.
11:44:
(Gary Kasparov)
He doesn't care.
11:46:
(Gary Kasparov)
These people appointed him.
11:47:
(Gary Kasparov)
I mean, by Constitution, by all the laws, he has to revere them.
11:52:
(Gary Kasparov)
No, he was insulting them.
11:54:
(Gary Kasparov)
It was always a one-man show, actually, for one man.
11:57:
(Gary Kasparov)
And the same with all others.
12:00:
(Gary Kasparov)
So it's, yeah, it's fantastic.
12:01:
(Gary Kasparov)
You have all these laws, but just for a moment, just, you know, look in the mirror and just think hard.
12:07:
(Gary Kasparov)
If the moment comes, day X, Kash Patel, Pambu, and others, will they follow Constitution or Donald Trump's orders?
12:16:
(Gary Kasparov)
And when you answer this question, you'll understand that everything is a piece of paper.
12:19:
(Gary Kasparov)
There are many ways around.
12:21:
(Hannah Rosen)
Okay, one more, one more.
12:22:
(Hannah Rosen)
The courts.
12:23:
(Hannah Rosen)
In what you guys have seen, in wherever you want to talk about, Poland, Russia, wherever, the courts actually have, not perfectly and not in every case, shown up a lot.
12:33:
(Ann Applebaum)
It depends on whether the courts themselves have been taken over, because usually the first thing that happens, and in this country it's been happening actually over the last two decades,
12:42:
(Ann Applebaum)
But the first thing that happens is that the would-be autocrats, the people who want to undermine the system, take over the courts.
12:49:
(Ann Applebaum)
This is exactly what happened in Poland.
12:50:
(Ann Applebaum)
It's a complicated, long story, but the elected government changed the constitutional tribunal, which is their equivalent of the Supreme Court, and they managed to do it by changing the retirement age law.
13:02:
(Ann Applebaum)
Like what Israel's tried to do.
13:03:
(Ann Applebaum)
And actually, I think the Israelis were copying the polls.
13:06:
(Ann Applebaum)
Israelis said that to me.
13:07:
(Ann Applebaum)
So they changed a whole series of small rules without passing a constitutional law in order to change the nature of the court.
13:14:
(Ann Applebaum)
And the purpose of that was so that when they began to do things that were unconstitutional, they would get away with it.
13:19:
(Ann Applebaum)
And they didn't quite get far enough, and they thought they had enough controls over the system so that they would never lose an election again, but they were wrong, and so on.
13:30:
(Ann Applebaum)
However, it has to be said as a little footnote, unpicking that
13:35:
(Ann Applebaum)
So getting the courts back to where they were before and figuring out what to do with hundreds of illegally appointed judges and so on that took place during that period is a nightmare.
13:47:
(Ann Applebaum)
I mean, so putting back the cracked egg after it's been smashed is also very difficult.
13:53:
(Gary Kasparov)
But judges can make a decision.
13:56:
(Gary Kasparov)
They cannot enforce it.
13:58:
(Gary Kasparov)
That's why you have three branches of the government.
14:00:
(Gary Kasparov)
And the first one, Article I, is Congress.
14:03:
(Gary Kasparov)
So, yeah, I think it's in 1833, 1834, it's this President Jackson.
14:09:
(Gary Kasparov)
He had to deal with the Supreme Court ruling against some of the colonies that were trying to steal lands in Georgia.
14:17:
(Gary Kasparov)
And he said, okay, fine.
14:19:
(Gary Kasparov)
I cannot stop them.
14:19:
(Gary Kasparov)
I'm not going to send troops.
14:20:
(Gary Kasparov)
Let them enforce it.
14:22:
(Ann Applebaum)
Apparently that's apocryphal.
14:23:
(Ann Applebaum)
It's apocryphal?
14:25:
(Ann Applebaum)
He didn't really say that, but that's more or less what happened.
14:27:
(Ann Applebaum)
But more or less what happened.
14:28:
(Ann Applebaum)
But yes, he said specifically, Jackson said, let the judge enforce.
14:32:
(Hannah Rosen)
But Gary, have you seen any signs of that in the courts?
14:35:
(Hannah Rosen)
You're taking away all hope that I have.
14:37:
(Hannah Rosen)
No, but again, it's the courts.
14:38:
(Gary Kasparov)
Go ahead, but I'm just asking.
14:40:
(Gary Kasparov)
The courts, most of them are just doing their job.
14:43:
(Gary Kasparov)
But again, let's talk about, for instance, the National Guard in the big cities, the blue cities.
14:49:
(Gary Kasparov)
So now it's all pending.
14:51:
(Gary Kasparov)
And the court decision was, yeah, it's probably saying it probably was not exactly legal.
14:58:
(Gary Kasparov)
But now, let's say Donald Trump sends the troops to, you wouldn't call it contempt of the court, but ignoring it, just to Chicago or Memphis, any big blue city.
15:12:
(Gary Kasparov)
It doesn't matter what the court decided.
15:13:
(Gary Kasparov)
The key is the test, the general that will have to make a decision.
15:19:
(Gary Kasparov)
will be forced to choose between Donald Trump's order and Constitution.
15:23:
(Hannah Rosen)
But let's just be clear, he actually hasn't.
15:25:
(Hannah Rosen)
Sending the troops to Memphis is not illegal.
15:28:
(Hannah Rosen)
Not yet.
15:28:
(Gary Kasparov)
Not yet.
15:29:
(Gary Kasparov)
Not yet.
15:30:
(Gary Kasparov)
Not yet again.
15:31:
(Gary Kasparov)
It happens fast, but he's in the office for just eight, less than nine months.
15:37:
(Gary Kasparov)
So, and they're moving really fast.
15:40:
(Gary Kasparov)
They move really fast.
15:41:
(Gary Kasparov)
And again, the problem is that, you know, because his hold on MAGA base, he, through the MAGA base, he controls GOP, and through GOP, he controls the house.
15:51:
(Gary Kasparov)
House is silent.
15:52:
(Gary Kasparov)
And with house basically absent,
15:55:
(Gary Kasparov)
So he can do virtually anything he wants.
15:59:
(Ann Applebaum)
There is one court case that he hasn't enforced.
16:02:
(Ann Applebaum)
This is actually the TikTok case, but this is an ongoing story.
16:06:
(Ann Applebaum)
But I think it's true that for the moment, they've been skirting around trying to defy the Supreme Court openly.
16:13:
(Ann Applebaum)
But I agree with Gary that we could get there.
16:16:
(Ann Applebaum)
We could get there.
16:17:
(Ann Applebaum)
We could get there.
16:18:
(Gary Kasparov)
the big test is next year, the midterm.
16:22:
(Gary Kasparov)
Let's you remember, Donald Trump doesn't lose elections.
16:26:
(Gary Kasparov)
He said it.
16:27:
(Gary Kasparov)
Donald Trump doesn't accept bad numbers.
16:29:
(Gary Kasparov)
They don't exist.
16:30:
(Gary Kasparov)
He lives in the world with his own reality.
16:32:
(Gary Kasparov)
On January 6th, 2021, he tried to overturn the elections.
16:37:
(Gary Kasparov)
He had to rely on the MOP and few elected officials.
16:41:
(Gary Kasparov)
Now, he will do the same, and for me, it's not if, it's when.
16:46:
(Gary Kasparov)
But he will have FBI, DOJ, ICE, same mob, and more elected officials on his side.
16:54:
(Hannah Rosen)
To do what exactly?
16:55:
(Hannah Rosen)
What are you saying?
16:57:
(Gary Kasparov)
There are many ways of influencing elections.
16:59:
(Gary Kasparov)
If you think that the numbers will secure the victory for Democrats and that you can rely heavily on health care or tariffs, that's not enough.
17:10:
(Gary Kasparov)
FBI will be a player.
17:12:
(Gary Kasparov)
Unless Democrats can actually change the situation on the floor of the House, FBI and DOJ will be a player.
17:19:
(Gary Kasparov)
How many law firms acquiesced?
17:21:
(Gary Kasparov)
How many big companies acquiesced?
17:22:
(Gary Kasparov)
So at one point, you'll discover that probably there's not enough money.
17:26:
(Gary Kasparov)
available just to run the campaign because they will be attacked.
17:29:
(Gary Kasparov)
They'll find how to do that.
17:30:
(Ann Applebaum)
So, yes, to be clear, what the way you, again, it's like moderate, modern censorship is different from the old fashioned way and manipulating elections is also different from what it was.
17:41:
(Ann Applebaum)
And so, you know, you don't just take the big pile of votes and steal them and move them in another room.
17:47:
(Ann Applebaum)
What you do is you try to create the conditions for the election to be in your favor.
17:52:
(Ann Applebaum)
So you get rid of a level playing field and you make it unlevel so that it works in your favor.
17:57:
(Ann Applebaum)
Like gerrymandering or what?
17:59:
(Ann Applebaum)
So gerrymandering is a big part of the story.
18:02:
(Ann Applebaum)
I mean, you saw what just happened in Texas.
18:05:
(Ann Applebaum)
The Trump administration is pushing other Republican states to do the same.
18:09:
(Ann Applebaum)
This is why it's very important that Newsom responded the way he did, ugly as it is that he wants to gerrymander California.
18:15:
(Ann Applebaum)
It's very important that he drew attention to this as a phenomenon.
18:19:
(Ann Applebaum)
I mean, gerrymandering goes – a long conversation gerrymandering goes back a long time.
18:23:
(Ann Applebaum)
A lot of people have done it.
18:24:
(Ann Applebaum)
This is the first time I'm aware of that the federal government, that the president, has got involved in telling a state to gerrymander so as to help him, so as to assist his White House.
18:38:
(Ann Applebaum)
And the decision of the Texas governor to do it now is out of turn.
18:42:
(Ann Applebaum)
It's not when it's, you know, these borders aren't normally rewritten at this point in the cycle.
18:48:
(Ann Applebaum)
Usually it's every 10 years to do with when the census is taken.
18:51:
(Ann Applebaum)
And so this is already one thing that's unprecedented.
18:54:
(Ann Applebaum)
The second thing that's unprecedented is the federal government has been demanding voter rolls from states, allegedly looking for fraud or allegedly they're trying to create some kind of national voter race.
19:06:
(Ann Applebaum)
It's not clear what.
19:07:
(Ann Applebaum)
And we had versions of this actually in the 2024 election.
19:12:
(Ann Applebaum)
There was some evidence of this, some kind of games beginning to play too.
19:15:
(Ann Applebaum)
So they're beginning to look at how they can legally push people off the voter rolls.
19:22:
(Ann Applebaum)
I mean, it's hard to steal midterms because the rules are different in every state and so on.
19:26:
(Ann Applebaum)
But what they're trying to do is set conditions that will make it much harder for the Democrats to win.
19:31:
(Ann Applebaum)
By the way, again, to go back to another example, in Poland in 2023, this is exactly what happened.
19:38:
(Ann Applebaum)
They tried to create conditions whereby...
19:41:
(Ann Applebaum)
The ruling party, it was called the Law and Justice Party, were sure that they would win because they'd created the rules that would make them win.
19:47:
(Ann Applebaum)
And actually, there was a huge turnout.
19:49:
(Ann Applebaum)
The voters voted in very, very high numbers and they lost anyway, which they were very surprised by.
19:54:
(Ann Applebaum)
And when they lost, it was funny, they didn't have a plan B.
19:58:
(Ann Applebaum)
Like they were so sure they were going to win that they didn't plan to steal the numbers or fake the numbers.
20:03:
(Ann Applebaum)
And then when they lost, they didn't know what to do.
20:05:
(Ann Applebaum)
And there was a period when they were kind of disoriented.
20:07:
(Ann Applebaum)
But what you're going to see over the next year is all kinds of small things, and it will be different in different states.
20:14:
(Ann Applebaum)
And what they will do is try to shape a situation whereby they win.
20:18:
(Ann Applebaum)
And we could get done.
20:19:
(Ann Applebaum)
I mean, we saw in 2020, we know that the president called up the Secretary of State of Georgia and said, what was it?
20:25:
(Ann Applebaum)
I'm missing 9,000 votes.
20:26:
(Ann Applebaum)
Could you just get me 9,000 votes?
20:28:
(Ann Applebaum)
I mean, we could have that again in a state, and we could have it in a state where the Secretary of State agrees.
20:35:
(Hannah Rosen)
We're going to take a short break, and we'll be back in a minute with more from Anne Applebaum and Gary Kasparov.
21:53:
(Hannah Rosen)
Okay, I'm going to ask you a question that I don't want to ask you, and then I'm going to close my eyes as you answer.
21:58:
(Hannah Rosen)
2026.
22:02:
(Gary Kasparov)
Most faithful election in American history.
22:06:
(Gary Kasparov)
Most what?
22:07:
(Gary Kasparov)
Faithful elections in American history.
22:09:
(Gary Kasparov)
If Democrats do not retake the House, the 2028 will be formality.
22:14:
(Gary Kasparov)
That's it.
22:15:
(Gary Kasparov)
Then I'm afraid the show, autocracy in America, the show will be shut down.
22:21:
(Crosstalk)
Mm-hmm.
22:21:
(Crosstalk)
Mm-hmm.
22:21:
(Ann Applebaum)
Hannah and I will run it in the underground.
22:23:
(Ann Applebaum)
Yes, we'll run it in the underground.
22:26:
(Ann Applebaum)
In this room.
22:27:
(Hannah Rosen)
Okay, 2028.
22:27:
(Gary Kasparov)
No, it's this 20... 2028 is too late.
22:31:
(Gary Kasparov)
2020 is too far.
22:33:
(Gary Kasparov)
2026.
22:33:
(Gary Kasparov)
This is the battlefield.
22:35:
(Gary Kasparov)
You have to make sure that the Congress, that's Article I of the Constitution, will take a stand against Donald Trump.
22:43:
(Gary Kasparov)
And by the way, I believe the Democrats should actually start working on it now.
22:47:
(Gary Kasparov)
There are five Republicans, the five members of the House that separate, you know, Donald Trump from pushing, you know, his agenda.
22:54:
(Gary Kasparov)
Three of GOP members, they are retiring.
22:57:
(Gary Kasparov)
So make them an offer they cannot reject.
23:00:
(Gary Kasparov)
All you need, you need five votes.
23:01:
(Gary Kasparov)
And it's again, be active, try.
23:03:
(Gary Kasparov)
Offer them a speakership.
23:04:
(Gary Kasparov)
I'm just, you know, people are people.
23:06:
(Gary Kasparov)
So let's create campaigns, you know, just create conditions where a lot of them will feel uncomfortable and maybe some of them will be lured by the great opportunities.
23:13:
(Gary Kasparov)
But try, fight.
23:14:
(Gary Kasparov)
The problem is no one is fighting now.
23:17:
(Gary Kasparov)
And by the way, never accept any deals with Republicans.
23:20:
(Gary Kasparov)
Shut down, shut down.
23:21:
(Gary Kasparov)
It's bad.
23:22:
(Gary Kasparov)
But remember, this government is not working for us.
23:25:
(Gary Kasparov)
It's against us.
23:26:
(Gary Kasparov)
So just this, no deals.
23:27:
(Gary Kasparov)
Donald Trump doesn't believe that Democrats exist.
23:30:
(Gary Kasparov)
He said it, not me.
23:32:
(Gary Kasparov)
Don't deal with them.
23:34:
(Gary Kasparov)
He is really de facto running one-party system.
23:37:
(Gary Kasparov)
Don't make deals with him.
23:38:
(Gary Kasparov)
Just fight at every opportunity you have.
23:40:
(Ann Applebaum)
There's another thing that we're seeing here that I've also seen in other countries is that- I feel like that should have been an applause.
23:45:
(Ann Applebaum)
I don't know why.
23:46:
(Hannah Rosen)
I feel like, you know, fight.
23:50:
(Hannah Rosen)
Sorry.
23:52:
(Hannah Rosen)
Yeah, go ahead, sorry.
23:53:
(Ann Applebaum)
I was gonna say another thing that we're seeing here that we also see in other countries is when you have a political party come to power that seeks to change the rules, and another country I didn't mention actually is Venezuela, where this very much was true.
24:08:
(Ann Applebaum)
that seeks to change the rules.
24:09:
(Ann Applebaum)
It doesn't have to be a right wing.
24:10:
(Ann Applebaum)
It can also be left wing.
24:11:
(Ann Applebaum)
So they seek to change the rules.
24:13:
(Ann Applebaum)
One of the things that happens is that the political opposition immediately fragments and they immediately don't know what to do.
24:21:
(Ann Applebaum)
And this is like, you can look at Hungary, you can look at Poland, you can look at Venezuela.
24:26:
(Ann Applebaum)
So is that what's happening now with the Democrats?
24:28:
(Ann Applebaum)
I think it's what's happening now because the old rules and the old ways by which people made political careers and by which they did messaging and did campaigning aren't working anymore.
24:36:
(Ann Applebaum)
And nobody really knows why.
24:39:
(Ann Applebaum)
And the new rules aren't clear yet.
24:41:
(Ann Applebaum)
And actually, I think that what we're seeing Democrats doing, I have a little bit more patience with them than Gary does, is you see a lot of different people trying different things.
24:52:
(Ann Applebaum)
Like Mamdani.
24:54:
(Ann Applebaum)
Like Mamdani, for example.
24:55:
(Ann Applebaum)
He's trying to reach young people in a new way.
24:59:
(Ann Applebaum)
Who else?
25:00:
(Ann Applebaum)
Just so that we can start looking around.
25:02:
(Ann Applebaum)
Chris Murphy, okay, who's a senator from Connecticut, who's made it his business to be constantly on social media and to be talking all the time and to, you know, to go around the country and speaking.
25:12:
(Ann Applebaum)
AOC got a whole bunch of people, you know, with Bernie Sanders held rallies in different cities, including in red states around the country.
25:20:
(Ann Applebaum)
Gavin Newsom, he's doing something completely different.
25:24:
(Ann Applebaum)
He decided to use Twitter, which is the most important forum for the far right for the MAGA conversation, and he decided to flip it back on them and make fun of them and use satire and humor to attract attention and to break through in the algorithms.
25:41:
(Ann Applebaum)
It's completely different from what Mamdani is doing, but it's another way of seeking to gain attention and build a constituency.
25:49:
(Ann Applebaum)
Governor Pritzker in Illinois is another one.
25:51:
(Ann Applebaum)
And he's very different from Gavin Newsom.
25:55:
(Ann Applebaum)
He's doing these very heartfelt, very authentic speeches about Chicago, about Illinois, about the history of his family, relating them to the present.
26:05:
(Ann Applebaum)
And he's breaking through in that way.
26:07:
(Ann Applebaum)
One of those styles will win.
26:10:
(Ann Applebaum)
I mean, one of them will become the thing that's most popular.
26:13:
(Ann Applebaum)
So why is Gary not with us here?
26:16:
(Ann Applebaum)
I'm just kidding.
26:16:
(Gary Kasparov)
Because there are many more red states than blue states.
26:20:
(Gary Kasparov)
And something that works in New York does not work.
26:23:
(Gary Kasparov)
Actually, it's counterproductive in many other states.
26:27:
(Ann Applebaum)
But, Gary, this is why you need multiple people.
26:30:
(Gary Kasparov)
The idea that we need one leader right now.
26:33:
(Gary Kasparov)
My problem is not having the big tent.
26:36:
(Gary Kasparov)
Actually, I'm saying it's very important for us to understand.
26:39:
(Gary Kasparov)
We're fighting just for the soul of American democracy.
26:43:
(Gary Kasparov)
And he says, we have to protect the framework.
26:46:
(Gary Kasparov)
And within the framework, I'm more than happy to debate with people that disagree with me.
26:49:
(Gary Kasparov)
But this framework is in grave danger now.
26:52:
(Gary Kasparov)
That's what Donald Trump was trying to destroy.
26:54:
(Gary Kasparov)
But to beat Donald Trump, we have to make sure that within this big tent, the leadership of the coalition will be accepted by people in the middle.
27:02:
(Gary Kasparov)
Because at the end of the day, you still need just to build a coalition, to win it.
27:05:
(Gary Kasparov)
And our coalition is not strong enough.
27:08:
(Gary Kasparov)
We need people that are just in the middle.
27:10:
(Gary Kasparov)
And unfortunately, in 2024, many of them shifted to the other side.
27:15:
(Gary Kasparov)
And one of the reasons, you know, culture war, for instance, they said it.
27:19:
(Gary Kasparov)
So we have to make sure we'll build a coalition that will concentrate on the key elements of the campaign.
27:24:
(Gary Kasparov)
And these key elements are just, you know, have to be associated with people that have no political liabilities.
27:30:
(Gary Kasparov)
I'm very happy to work with this grand coalition.
27:32:
(Gary Kasparov)
But again, as the faces, as the people on the front, the front liners should be those who will be accepted by the majority.
27:40:
(Ann Applebaum)
But they also have to be people who will motivate their base.
27:44:
(Ann Applebaum)
And they also have to be people who are creative and who are...
27:48:
(Ann Applebaum)
not simply saying, let's go back and have everything be the way it was.
27:52:
(Ann Applebaum)
You know, there have to be people who have a different kind of inspiring vision.
27:56:
(Gary Kasparov)
There are so many tools available for American citizens to put pressure on members of the House, on senators, even on administration, on local governors.
28:05:
(Gary Kasparov)
You can just, you know, you can go to demonstrate on the streets.
28:08:
(Gary Kasparov)
You know, it's not Russia.
28:09:
(Gary Kasparov)
It's not...
28:10:
(Gary Kasparov)
God forbid, since there are many ways for Americans to demonstrate that they disagree with the current policies.
28:19:
(Gary Kasparov)
But to do that, temperament.
28:21:
(Gary Kasparov)
You have to be engaged.
28:23:
(Gary Kasparov)
And you have to understand that it's the real battle.
28:26:
(Gary Kasparov)
And stop thinking about 2028, as Anne said.
28:28:
(Gary Kasparov)
It's 2026.
28:30:
(Gary Kasparov)
And even just every month, every week between now and 2026 elections, make sure that we'll be ready.
28:36:
(Gary Kasparov)
If God forbid, they'll try to do things.
28:38:
(Gary Kasparov)
Anne didn't even mention this, social networks.
28:43:
(Gary Kasparov)
In one of my episodes in the podcast, I talked to Gary Marcus, the expert on AI and neuroscience.
28:50:
(Gary Kasparov)
So we talked about techno-fascism.
28:53:
(Gary Kasparov)
There's so many subtle ways of influencing elections.
28:56:
(Gary Kasparov)
Again, make sure we're ready for this battle.
28:58:
(Gary Kasparov)
And I like our chances.
29:00:
(Gary Kasparov)
It's much better than Russia.
29:01:
(Gary Kasparov)
Probably it's as good as in Poland, even better.
29:04:
(Gary Kasparov)
But Poles knew they had to fight.
29:07:
(Gary Kasparov)
So please recognize it's a fight.
29:11:
(Gary Kasparov)
And it's not 2028.
29:12:
(Gary Kasparov)
It's now.
29:13:
(Ann Applebaum)
Yeah, the thing I like to say is that people often ask me what should I do or what can ordinary people do?
29:18:
(Ann Applebaum)
And the answer to that question is it depends who you are.
29:22:
(Ann Applebaum)
If your job is – if you're a lawyer, then work pro bono on some of the cases that –
29:29:
(Ann Applebaum)
that will determine which way the system goes.
29:33:
(Ann Applebaum)
If you are a teacher, make sure that you are teaching children about the nature of our political system.
29:40:
(Ann Applebaum)
You can demonstrate, you can join a political party, you can join an organization, you can contribute to organizations.
29:47:
(Ann Applebaum)
And very often, by being engaged, in other words, by doing something, then it will become clear to you what to do next.
29:55:
(Ann Applebaum)
So it's by being involved that you understand how to become more useful.
30:01:
(Ann Applebaum)
And I also, the other thing, and I found this very much in Poland as well, for those of you who don't know, I lived there part of the time.
30:08:
(Ann Applebaum)
is that also by doing something, by being engaged, you feel better.
30:14:
(Ann Applebaum)
I mean, so you don't feel like you're helpless and history is washing over you and you can't do anything.
30:20:
(Ann Applebaum)
If you're involved, then you're doing something and that's the way to fight pessimism.
30:26:
(Hannah Rosen)
Gary, you mentioned this, but I think it's important to illuminate in detail.
30:31:
(Hannah Rosen)
This is where you did say we are different from Russia.
30:34:
(Hannah Rosen)
There are things that you can do.
30:36:
(Hannah Rosen)
So what is the experience in Russia of this moment in the playbook for an average citizen versus the experience in the U.S.?
30:43:
(Hannah Rosen)
I think it will just, like, let some air in the room to know that we do have options.
30:47:
(Hannah Rosen)
Today in Russia?
30:49:
(Ann Applebaum)
No, no, compared to, say, 2010.
30:50:
(Hannah Rosen)
So take the moment when Putin bans...
30:53:
(Hannah Rosen)
Like the moment we started out talking with.
30:56:
(Gary Kasparov)
It was actually the beginning.
30:58:
(Gary Kasparov)
It was the year 2000.
30:59:
(Hannah Rosen)
Right.
31:00:
(Hannah Rosen)
So you take that moment.
31:01:
(Hannah Rosen)
Our options, as you said, are different and better.
31:05:
(Hannah Rosen)
And we have more of them.
31:06:
(Ann Applebaum)
And I want people to understand that.
31:08:
(Ann Applebaum)
What was it that Russians couldn't do in 2000 that we can do now?
31:12:
(Gary Kasparov)
Yeah.
31:12:
(Gary Kasparov)
Oh, yeah, this is, look, Russia didn't have the same traditions of democracy.
31:16:
(Gary Kasparov)
Great.
31:17:
(Gary Kasparov)
Russia's democracy.
31:18:
(Gary Kasparov)
No political parties.
31:19:
(Gary Kasparov)
It's the, it was all, no, no, no.
31:21:
(Gary Kasparov)
Look, it's the.
31:22:
(Gary Kasparov)
No, this is where the year is.
31:23:
(Hannah Rosen)
This is where we can breathe.
31:25:
(Gary Kasparov)
Yeah, and the KGB was still too strong.
31:28:
(Gary Kasparov)
So the oligarchs had no interest in defending democracy.
31:31:
(Gary Kasparov)
So it's the, look, it's nothing to compare.
31:34:
(Gary Kasparov)
So this, but, you know, the fact is that Russia in 2000 was so different from America in 2025,
31:41:
(Gary Kasparov)
should not make you feel happy.
31:44:
(Gary Kasparov)
Because it's just difference.
31:47:
(Gary Kasparov)
It may disappear because Donald Trump shows determination to destroy the checks and balances.
31:54:
(Gary Kasparov)
So you have a bully there.
31:56:
(Gary Kasparov)
And again, imagine demand lies every minute.
32:00:
(Gary Kasparov)
So I think we have to just find just a unique opportunity just to quote him saying the truth.
32:06:
(Gary Kasparov)
Yeah.
32:09:
(Gary Kasparov)
And it works.
32:10:
(Gary Kasparov)
And it's not just him being there.
32:12:
(Gary Kasparov)
It's just so many sycophants around.
32:14:
(Gary Kasparov)
And you have many intelligent people there that keep repeating the same lies.
32:17:
(Gary Kasparov)
Again, that tells you that the critical mass of people have been willing to cross the red line.
32:24:
(Gary Kasparov)
We're not yet there, but we have to fight.
32:28:
(Gary Kasparov)
And there's still many opportunities here.
32:31:
(Gary Kasparov)
But remember again, it's the constitution, it just doesn't defend itself.
32:35:
(Gary Kasparov)
You have tools, phenomenal tools, it was created by founding fathers.
32:41:
(Gary Kasparov)
But I don't think Americans ever just face this kind of threat.
32:45:
(Gary Kasparov)
So it's different.
32:47:
(Gary Kasparov)
I would say it's somehow even worse than civil war.
32:50:
(Gary Kasparov)
Because again, it says now you have a sitting president trying to undermine the constitutional principles.
32:56:
(Gary Kasparov)
In 1861, it was easy.
32:57:
(Gary Kasparov)
Okay, you have, you know, this is the renegades, the confederacy, the war.
33:00:
(Gary Kasparov)
Now it's the...
33:01:
(Gary Kasparov)
It's enemies within.
33:03:
(Gary Kasparov)
So this is, it's no, by the way, when you look at the world now, I grew up in the world and I grew up in the world when we knew there was this iron curtain, this is the unfree world, free world, America, the beacon of hope, guardian of freedom.
33:15:
(Gary Kasparov)
Now, when you talk about autocrats and Democrats, there's no geographical border anymore.
33:21:
(Ann Applebaum)
One of the points that I make in the book I published last year was that this competition between autocratic ideas and democratic ideas is not a new Cold War.
33:32:
(Ann Applebaum)
It's not this one guy's on one side of the wall and the other's on the other.
33:36:
(Ann Applebaum)
It takes place inside every country.
33:38:
(Ann Applebaum)
It takes place in the U.S., in the U.K., in Poland, also in Russia.
33:43:
(Ann Applebaum)
For a moment it's over.
33:48:
(Ann Applebaum)
For the moment it's over, but the most successful political movement in Russia in recent years was an anti-corruption movement, which was essentially a rule of law movement.
33:56:
(Ann Applebaum)
And so the idea that rule of law and transparency and accountability are important is something that at least some Russians understand.
34:03:
(Gary Kasparov)
Some.
34:03:
(Hannah Rosen)
And why does it matter that it's internal versus on one side and the other side?
34:09:
(Hannah Rosen)
Why does that change the dynamic?
34:11:
(Ann Applebaum)
Because it's much easier for all of us to say we're all together against the foreign enemy, whatever, against the aliens, against the communists, against the people who want to.
34:21:
(Ann Applebaum)
And then you create a sense of national identity and unity and so on.
34:25:
(Ann Applebaum)
We don't have that now.
34:26:
(Ann Applebaum)
You know, the division is inside us and it's inside families.
34:30:
(Ann Applebaum)
I'm sure many people here have had this experience or inside friendships or friend circles.
34:35:
(Ann Applebaum)
And that makes it much harder to negotiate and much harder to recreate a narrative of unity once again.
34:42:
(Hannah Rosen)
Although I have noticed, one positive thing I've noticed is that there are counter reactions to Trump.
34:47:
(Hannah Rosen)
Like in Canada, you see different countries saying we don't want to go there.
34:51:
(Hannah Rosen)
It's sort of like we've become the enemy in a certain way.
34:54:
(Gary Kasparov)
I was in Canada two days ago, just had a speech there.
34:57:
(Gary Kasparov)
Great audience.
34:59:
(Gary Kasparov)
Pro-Ukrainian, anti-Trump.
35:02:
(Gary Kasparov)
Yeah.
35:02:
(Ann Applebaum)
I was in Sweden last week, actually, and I also talked to a lot of people there, and there you have this 100% unity in support of Ukraine and against Russia.
35:18:
(Ann Applebaum)
And part of that, part of where that's coming from is I would describe it almost as fear of the United States.
35:25:
(Ann Applebaum)
Right.
35:25:
(Ann Applebaum)
You know, that they understand they now need to be together.
35:28:
(Gary Kasparov)
Sweden, yes.
35:29:
(Gary Kasparov)
Sweden.
35:30:
(Gary Kasparov)
Sweden, yes.
35:30:
(Gary Kasparov)
But when you look at some other countries, Germany, the most popular party in the polls now, AFD, alternative for Germany.
35:37:
(Gary Kasparov)
That's almost openly.
35:38:
(Gary Kasparov)
It's not just neo-NASIS.
35:39:
(Gary Kasparov)
It's on Putin's payroll.
35:41:
(Ann Applebaum)
Yep.
35:41:
(Ann Applebaum)
It's a party that was created with Russian money and Russian influence campaigns.
35:45:
(Hannah Rosen)
So maybe we can end by just talking about the world realignment outside our borders.
35:49:
(Hannah Rosen)
We've just talked about the positive elements of that.
35:51:
(Hannah Rosen)
The U.S. has become a kind of warning signal to some countries.
35:56:
(Hannah Rosen)
But then there was the recent meeting with Russia, China, and North Korea.
36:00:
(Hannah Rosen)
You just visited Sudan to talk about the threat of the U.S. kind of carrying out further.
36:05:
(Hannah Rosen)
What do you guys see in the broader world that is worrisome?
36:09:
(Ann Applebaum)
What you see in the broader world is almost...
36:14:
(Ann Applebaum)
total collapse of faith and belief in the United States and a kind of shock that is still, the waves are still coursing.
36:23:
(Ann Applebaum)
As people try to understand what does it mean that the United States isn't the leader of the democratic camp anymore, the democratic world, it's not just Europe, it's Europe and Asia and elsewhere.
36:33:
(Ann Applebaum)
And how does that affect our trade relations with America?
36:36:
(Ann Applebaum)
And how does that affect the way we think about our defense?
36:39:
(Ann Applebaum)
And how does that affect the way we think about social media, which is all American, you know, mostly American?
36:44:
(Ann Applebaum)
And so you have this, it's almost a constant topic in the domestic politics of all of our allies.
36:51:
(Ann Applebaum)
How do we rethink who we are and what we do, given that the United States is not what we expect?
36:56:
(Ann Applebaum)
And I don't think I can, you can understate the amount of shock and disruption it's caused.
37:02:
(Gary Kasparov)
Yeah, you mentioned this.
37:03:
(Gary Kasparov)
The summit, it was not just Russia and North Korea.
37:07:
(Gary Kasparov)
There were many other countries there.
37:09:
(Gary Kasparov)
You may call it, you know, this dictators international.
37:13:
(Gary Kasparov)
But I think what was important was not just a meeting.
37:16:
(Gary Kasparov)
It was a meeting where Xi Jinping was crowned as the capo de tutti capi of this international authoritarian network.
37:26:
(Gary Kasparov)
I think it is if you remember the picture when he was, you know, just he was in front and then Putin on his right hand and Kim on the left hand and, you know, body language.
37:36:
(Gary Kasparov)
I mean, Putin was its subordinate.
37:38:
(Gary Kasparov)
And by the way, Russia is a Chinese satellite now.
37:40:
(Gary Kasparov)
I was called, you know, it's a Chinese gas station with nukes.
37:43:
(Gary Kasparov)
Yeah.
37:45:
(Gary Kasparov)
And Putin follows Chinese orders.
37:49:
(Gary Kasparov)
Xi Jinping needs this war in Ukraine.
37:51:
(Gary Kasparov)
So that's why expecting Russia to be bankrupt is probably a bit of an exaggeration because the war helps him.
37:57:
(Gary Kasparov)
It's just Russia is getting weaker.
37:58:
(Gary Kasparov)
And since China is the only country that has a massive territorial claim to Russia, it's 1.5 million square kilometers, three times France, the entire territory from Vladivostok to Irkutsk,
38:08:
(Gary Kasparov)
It used to be China, prior to 1860, and China now believes it's time to.
38:13:
(Ann Applebaum)
And the Chinese have now produced maps that have the Chinese name of Vladivostok.
38:17:
(Gary Kasparov)
And it's Chinese, first time since 1860, the Chinese custom was working there, yes.
38:23:
(Gary Kasparov)
But one element, you just remember, because dictators always pay attention to symbolism,
38:29:
(Gary Kasparov)
First time I saw Xi Jinping wearing Mao's outfit, not a Western suit.
38:34:
(Gary Kasparov)
Everybody else was wearing a Western suit.
38:36:
(Gary Kasparov)
He's a leader, you know, and it's China.
38:39:
(Gary Kasparov)
But again, what do you expect?
38:40:
(Gary Kasparov)
You know, there's no vacuum in geopolitics.
38:42:
(Gary Kasparov)
If America moves out, somebody gets in and guess who will be in.
38:47:
(Gary Kasparov)
So it's a real challenge.
38:49:
(Gary Kasparov)
And I wrote an article for Die Welt, a German paper.
38:54:
(Gary Kasparov)
And I said, we saw...
38:56:
(Gary Kasparov)
Maybe not yet the New World Order, but definitely a bit for the New World Order.
39:01:
(Gary Kasparov)
And American corruption and European impotence are as cornerstones.
39:06:
(Hannah Rosen)
Okay, so this is our last thing.
39:07:
(Hannah Rosen)
I'm going to summarize what I think you guys, the message you're sending to this audience, and you can correct my summary.
39:14:
(Hannah Rosen)
At stake...
39:15:
(Hannah Rosen)
in the 2026 election is not just the future of democracy, but the alignment of the entire world.
39:24:
(Hannah Rosen)
And that's what the stakes are for us.
39:26:
(Hannah Rosen)
I don't want to overwhelm people and think, well, it's just one bully.
39:29:
(Hannah Rosen)
We can take it.
39:30:
(Hannah Rosen)
But if it's like one bully, a bunch of dictators here, an entire culture, forget it.
39:34:
(Gary Kasparov)
We are fighting not Donald Trump, but Trumpism as a phenomenon.
39:39:
(Gary Kasparov)
And that's why you have Nigel Farage in Britain.
39:41:
(Gary Kasparov)
You have Le Pen in France.
39:43:
(Gary Kasparov)
You have AFD in Germany.
39:44:
(Gary Kasparov)
You have Orban.
39:46:
(Gary Kasparov)
It's a global phenomenon.
39:47:
(Gary Kasparov)
And unless we can defeat it here, chances elsewhere are not looking good.
39:54:
(Hannah Rosen)
I'm going to say this without irony.
39:56:
(Hannah Rosen)
Thank you for inspiring us to fight.
40:11:
(Hannah Rosen)
This episode of Radio Atlantic was produced by Kevin Townsend.
40:15:
(Hannah Rosen)
It was edited by Andrea Valdez.
40:17:
(Hannah Rosen)
Thank you to all the staff at Atlantic Live for helping organize this event at this year's Atlantic Festival.
40:23:
(Hannah Rosen)
Rob Smersiak is our engineer.
40:26:
(Hannah Rosen)
Claudine Abade is the executive producer of Atlantic Audio.
40:29:
(Hannah Rosen)
And Andrea Valdez is our managing editor.
40:31:
(Hannah Rosen)
Listeners, if you like what you hear on Radio Atlantic, you can support our work and the work of all Atlantic journalists when you subscribe to The Atlantic at theatlantic.com slash listener.
40:45:
(Hannah Rosen)
I'm Hannah Rosen.
40:46:
(Hannah Rosen)
Thank you for listening.