This Is the End
00:05:
(JVL)
Hello, everyone.
00:12:
(JVL)
This is JVL.
00:13:
(JVL)
Welcome to The Next Level.
00:15:
(JVL)
I'm here with my best friend, Timothy Miller.
00:18:
(JVL)
We are not joined by my other best friend, Sarah Longwell, because Sarah is having some technical difficulties, and so we're just forging ahead without her.
00:28:
(Tim Miller)
I got to blame Barry on that one.
00:32:
(Tim Miller)
Sarah cannot be responsible for her own tech needs.
00:37:
(Tim Miller)
That's why she has a team.
00:38:
(Tim Miller)
I think if the team wants to be mentioned on our various podcast platforms for all their successes, of which they have many, they also have to stand for their failures, their gaps.
00:49:
(JVL)
She is texting me right now.
00:51:
(JVL)
She says, I have a spinning wheel of death.
00:54:
(JVL)
So she's got the beach ball of death coming along on her computer.
00:58:
(JVL)
And I would just like to say, putting you and me together on a show without any of Sarah's leavening optimism...
01:08:
(JVL)
We could go to a very dark place today.
01:10:
(Tim Miller)
Let's just bathe in the darkness.
01:13:
(JVL)
Alright, so Tim and I are taping this on the evening of Tuesday.
01:18:
(JVL)
This show will be released into the wild early Wednesday morning.
01:25:
(JVL)
Probably just an hour or two before Liz Cheney is... Gets the chop!
01:31:
(JVL)
Shame, shame, right?
01:33:
(JVL)
I'm thinking of the shame speech for Cersei Lannister where she, because this is really, I would say what Liz Cheney has done has been the Cersei Lannister, I choose violence, right?
01:44:
(JVL)
This has been her moment.
01:45:
(Tim Miller)
I don't do the magical forest.
01:47:
(Tim Miller)
I'm sorry.
01:47:
(Tim Miller)
We could have added Sunny or somebody for this.
01:50:
(JVL)
Well, I don't either, but I do Cersei Lannister because she's my spirit animal.
01:55:
(JVL)
So, Tim, would you like to start?
01:59:
(JVL)
I mean, I guess many people will have read about this, so we shouldn't spend too much time talking about the idea of the secret vote versus the public vote, although that interests me.
02:11:
(JVL)
But if you had to put the over-under for both secret and public on the number of people who will vote to support her, where would you set the line?
02:21:
(Tim Miller)
Boy, I think that number would have been different a week and a half ago.
02:23:
(Tim Miller)
I feel like they've really circled the wagons against her.
02:29:
(Tim Miller)
And I think that her speech, which we can talk about a little bit more, if we just want to have a moment of optimism, her speech, which she did just before we're taping this.
02:37:
(Tim Miller)
was a really an ode to democracy it was not at all giving an inch and good for her it was kind of a valedictory speech almost or a concession speech I guess maybe more so so I I don't it doesn't seem to me given you know if she was fighting for this
02:58:
(Tim Miller)
I think that she would be doing the deal where it's like, I'm not going against my values, but I understand how important it is that we beat the Joe Biden agenda and I'm going to be focused on that, right?
03:09:
(Tim Miller)
I think if she was giving that speech, this number could go up.
03:12:
(Tim Miller)
That's not what she's doing.
03:13:
(Tim Miller)
So I think she's basically throwing in the towel.
03:15:
(Tim Miller)
and i i think that in a public vote and the private vote difference will be very little i think the public vote she probably would have only had a handful um supporting her maybe i mean how many does she have right now two um three with her butler so you know maybe half of the impeachment voters so five i would think in a public vote in a secret vote it might get up to 12.
03:41:
(Tim Miller)
you know, or something like that.
03:43:
(JVL)
Wow.
03:43:
(JVL)
So I was going to set the line at like a dozen or 15, but if I did that, you go, you would just crush that under.
03:50:
(Tim Miller)
I'd crush the under.
03:52:
(Tim Miller)
Yeah.
03:52:
(Tim Miller)
I mean, I think that there's some, there's some going to be some weird hinky things out there.
03:56:
(Tim Miller)
Uh, people that like, don't like Elise, for example, and maybe, you know, vote to keep her for that reason or a personal, uh,
04:07:
(Tim Miller)
Friend, you know, in a big caucus like this, you know, this isn't like this in the Senate, you know, it's unruly.
04:14:
(Tim Miller)
So I think I definitely crushed the under on 15, though, for sure.
04:19:
(Tim Miller)
If you set it at 12, I think that's a closer number and I'd still take the under.
04:23:
(JVL)
So does it strike you that it is possible any longer with this vote to maintain the case that the Republican Party is not objectively pro-authoritarian?
04:40:
(Tim Miller)
I mean, how could you make that case?
04:43:
(Tim Miller)
I guess, you know, could anybody answer the question in the new Republican leadership of did...
04:54:
(Tim Miller)
You know, was the election stolen from Joe Biden or was the election stolen by Joe Biden from Donald Trump, stolen from Donald Trump?
05:01:
(Tim Miller)
And answer that clearly.
05:02:
(Tim Miller)
Yes, it was stolen.
05:03:
(Tim Miller)
I don't I don't think so.
05:06:
(Tim Miller)
I mean, that is Liz, to her credit, made this speech that she gave on the House floor and made this entire debate.
05:14:
(Tim Miller)
basically about whether or not you are pro-insurrection or anti.
05:19:
(Tim Miller)
I mean, that is what is on the ballot in their secret internal ballot.
05:25:
(Tim Miller)
Do you agree that the insurrection was unacceptable and we have to state clearly that it was unacceptable?
05:32:
(Tim Miller)
We have to state clearly that our democracy works and that we shouldn't have doubts about it?
05:38:
(Tim Miller)
There's no notion that we might be a rigged system like Venezuela?
05:43:
(Tim Miller)
that is what her speech was about and she's going to go down hard tomorrow over that so I don't know I guess the spin if I was to put on my
05:58:
(Tim Miller)
you know angry baseball face um best possible face on the republican party my you know tim scott ben sass spin i would say that this wasn't really about the insurrection that it was really about liz cheney not not not kind of
06:17:
(Tim Miller)
I agree with Liz on the merits, but I think that Joe Biden is so bad and cancel culture and blah, blah, blah are all so bad that she's just poking us all in the eye by focusing on it.
06:30:
(Tim Miller)
But I just don't think that that argument stands up to even the least bit of scrutiny.
06:36:
(JVL)
No, it doesn't.
06:38:
(JVL)
The corollary to this, which she has not said, or at least not said out loud, but which is the other shoe we need to drop is, is the leadership pro-insurrection next time?
06:54:
(JVL)
Because that's right.
06:55:
(JVL)
I mean, the question is, not only are you okay with the attempted coup and insurrection last time, because if you are, then next time should we do that as well?
07:09:
(JVL)
Right?
07:09:
(JVL)
And that's what this is, because...
07:11:
(JVL)
As it is arranged right now, I can't believe I'm saying this because it makes me sound like a hysteric.
07:18:
(JVL)
You're a little bit of a hysteric.
07:22:
(JVL)
See, I wish you had known me prior to all of this because I used to be the world-weary guy who was like, look, all of this has happened before and all of this will happen again.
07:33:
(JVL)
You know, this is 60 days from now.
07:37:
(JVL)
Whatever this thing is that everybody is up in arms about, they will have totally forgotten about it.
07:41:
(JVL)
And we've been moved on.
07:43:
(JVL)
And, you know, the 70s were much worse than this.
07:46:
(JVL)
And the 30s were much worse than the 70s.
07:49:
(JVL)
And the 1860 was even worse than those.
07:52:
(JVL)
You're not world weary anymore.
07:54:
(JVL)
I mean, I guess I'm world weary, but in a different beaten down sort of way where the Republican Party is a ticking time bomb situated at the heart of democracy.
08:09:
(JVL)
And I don't think that that, I mean, not only is that not clearly not hyperbolic, but I don't know that it's even disputable.
08:18:
(Tim Miller)
So you know how, I don't know if, I presume everybody's marriage is like this, but you know how something might happen that you would usually get really mad about, but your spouse is really, really mad about it.
08:33:
(Tim Miller)
And so just by nature, that calms you.
08:36:
(Tim Miller)
Because you're like, I need to be the calmer party in this matter.
08:40:
(Tim Miller)
I feel like this is happening to me right now.
08:42:
(Tim Miller)
Are we married?
08:42:
(Tim Miller)
Are we married?
08:42:
(Tim Miller)
Yeah, I feel like that's happening right now, and I'm having to lean into Sarah's role.
08:50:
(Tim Miller)
We'll do it.
08:50:
(JVL)
Put on your Vineyard Vines polo shirt and tie your Kenyan flannel around your waist and tell me all of the optimisms.
09:02:
(Tim Miller)
Fingerless gloves, my visor.
09:04:
(Tim Miller)
This is an optimism, I guess.
09:08:
(Tim Miller)
It's incorrect to say it's putting it in the Sarah role.
09:10:
(Tim Miller)
I mean it to maybe just soften your side of things.
09:17:
(Tim Miller)
Is it not possible that...
09:20:
(Tim Miller)
Donald Trump is the unique cancer in this situation.
09:25:
(Tim Miller)
I mean, I think that we both agree, obviously, that Donald Trump is both symptom and cause, that there was a lot of underlying darkness, some of which we recognize, some of which maybe we were blind to, that led to him.
09:38:
(Tim Miller)
But in this situation, he has this unique shamelessness.
09:44:
(Tim Miller)
That has really been his superpower.
09:48:
(Tim Miller)
And just think about how psychotic you have to be to be sitting in Mar-a-Lago, faxing in press releases about the Wyndham, New Hampshire patriots who are looking into the election.
10:01:
(Tim Miller)
I mean, like...
10:02:
(Tim Miller)
This is a deep, deep psychosis that Trump is still going along with this.
10:10:
(Tim Miller)
I mean, it's just blatantly false in every imaginable sense.
10:15:
(Tim Miller)
You feel like he's got to know it.
10:18:
(Tim Miller)
And I just...
10:21:
(Tim Miller)
Well, I agree with you that if he is to run again, in particular, him as a particular human, and Kevin McCarthy is the Speaker of the House, that we're going down your path.
10:35:
(Tim Miller)
But if he's removed from this equation, as noxious and just unappealing as whoever Ron DeSantis is or Ted Cruz, they just don't quite have that Trumpian shamelessness.
10:52:
(Tim Miller)
Can you just really imagine Ron DeSantis talking about the bamboo ballots in Arizona and forcing the entire House caucus into
11:02:
(Tim Miller)
to vote to overturn his defeat at the hands of Kamala Harris.
11:07:
(Tim Miller)
It's hard for me to imagine that.
11:09:
(Tim Miller)
Maybe my imagination just isn't, you know, maybe I'm limited.
11:13:
(Tim Miller)
I'm putting glass ceilings on my imagination.
11:17:
(JVL)
What if...
11:19:
(JVL)
The point is that Ron DeSantis doesn't have to demand this, but that the House members demand it, right?
11:25:
(JVL)
And what if the House members demand it because that's what the Republican voters demand?
11:30:
(JVL)
And what if the Republican voters demand it because this is what Fox and OANN and Newsmax are demanding come December of 2024, right?
11:39:
(JVL)
The question here is by normalizing all of this, have you created the conditions for a distributed attack
11:47:
(JVL)
on democracy, which can now take place even without Osama bin Laden as the figurehead of Al-Qaeda, right?
11:57:
(JVL)
Do you have an ISIS-type situation where lone wolves throughout the government can just say, no, we're not going to certify the ballots in this precinct because we...
12:09:
(JVL)
I heard Mike Liddell on Parler and I. Frank on Frank.
12:14:
(Tim Miller)
I do see what you're saying.
12:15:
(Tim Miller)
And this is where we agree.
12:16:
(Tim Miller)
I think that the distributed attacks, the potential of radicalized individuals, radicalized white nationalists, radicalized far right Republicans, radicalized whatever it is.
12:27:
(Tim Miller)
um you know attacking random you know vote counters and and in places i think that this is a threat going forward um for a period of time i think having your paul gosars and whatever you know pushing for this having crazy state legislatures in some state i i absolutely i mean i i absolutely am totally in line with you that the party right now is completely infected by this in a way that it's unsalvageable and that that
12:57:
(Tim Miller)
if there was a window to salvage it, that's closed.
13:00:
(Tim Miller)
So I agree with that.
13:02:
(Tim Miller)
I think that the, that the worst case scenario is, is very unique to Trump and, and getting a house majority on board for it is, is, is a little, what was it?
13:18:
(Tim Miller)
What was it?
13:19:
(Tim Miller)
Hysterical?
13:19:
(Tim Miller)
Is that what you said?
13:20:
(Tim Miller)
I don't know that it's hysterical.
13:21:
(Tim Miller)
It's, it's one of these things where it's like, I don't know, that has what 2% chance of happening 4%.
13:25:
(Tim Miller)
Like,
13:26:
(Tim Miller)
The entire period since George Wallace died, not died, but the entire period since whatever, the 70s, there was like a 0% chance of any concern about overthrowing of our democracy.
13:43:
(Tim Miller)
So it's upticked, but that I guess is where I would offer just the slightest hint of light.
13:55:
(JVL)
So let's go back to Liz Cheney.
13:58:
(JVL)
Okay.
13:58:
(JVL)
Liz Cheney is removed from her position.
14:04:
(JVL)
When the House reorganizes, who does she caucus with?
14:13:
(Tim Miller)
These people are so broken, Jonathan.
14:15:
(JVL)
Does she caucus?
14:16:
(JVL)
I mean, does she vote for Kevin McCarthy for leader?
14:21:
(Tim Miller)
I think so.
14:23:
(Tim Miller)
Really?
14:24:
(Tim Miller)
I think so.
14:26:
(Tim Miller)
I mean, right?
14:29:
(Tim Miller)
This is where I feel like I'm taking crazy pills sometimes because this is so obvious to me.
14:36:
(Tim Miller)
And we go back to this whole conversation we've been having where it's like...
14:41:
(Tim Miller)
Edmund Burke and Condoleezza Rice and John Kasich got their write-in votes.
14:50:
(Tim Miller)
Some of these people are just completely broken by the partisan tribal times that we're in and just can't imagine...
15:05:
(Tim Miller)
being anything other than Republican.
15:07:
(Tim Miller)
And so, I mean, yeah, I think that she gets absolutely slaughtered in her House conference leadership vote tomorrow and then goes on in 2022 to vote for Speaker Kevin McCarthy.
15:22:
(Tim Miller)
Well, I think she probably gets beaten in Wyoming.
15:24:
(Tim Miller)
She gets beaten in Wyoming.
15:25:
(Tim Miller)
So she never will really have that opportunity.
15:28:
(Tim Miller)
Though she does have a nice little...
15:29:
(Tim Miller)
I noticed the other day that she's up to seven potential opponents.
15:33:
(Tim Miller)
So she could potentially get math working in her favor if these crazies can't.
15:39:
(Tim Miller)
Sometimes the crazy goats can't hoard themselves.
15:42:
(Tim Miller)
But that's what you have Trump for.
15:44:
(Tim Miller)
Probably.
15:45:
(JVL)
So Trump comes in there and picks who the challenger is.
15:49:
(JVL)
Probably.
15:50:
(JVL)
Probably.
15:53:
(JVL)
You know, I got to say, I am— What do you think?
15:55:
(JVL)
Do you think that she caucuses in different—you don't—you disagree with me?
15:59:
(JVL)
I think she could caucus as an independent, especially if that changed the leadership, right?
16:09:
(JVL)
I mean, by denying a vote, if it's a super close house, that could matter.
16:14:
(JVL)
But they could threaten her with her committee positions, right?
16:17:
(JVL)
I mean, they could say, you know, but at this point, what the fuck does she care?
16:22:
(Tim Miller)
I don't know.
16:22:
(Tim Miller)
What does the house do?
16:23:
(Tim Miller)
I mean, literally before her speech tonight, do you know what the topic was?
16:28:
(Tim Miller)
No, but I wanted you to talk about what you mentioned on our Slack, about the guy referring to... Yeah, so before her speech, there was an important debate happening on the House floor, House representatives.
16:40:
(Tim Miller)
I don't know if you...
16:41:
(Tim Miller)
The people's business.
16:43:
(Tim Miller)
The people's house.
16:43:
(Tim Miller)
C-SPAN, but there was about an hour of debate.
16:46:
(Tim Miller)
There was some pharmaceutical issue that they were taking care of, and then after that, they had an hour of debate about the matter of cancel culture.
16:53:
(Tim Miller)
Ooh.
16:55:
(Tim Miller)
Yeah, right before she was on, there's a gentleman.
16:57:
(JVL)
It's really bad, by the way.
16:59:
(JVL)
I'm against it.
16:59:
(Tim Miller)
Yeah, there's this gentleman, Andrew Clyde, who's in kind of like a really garish olive suit.
17:08:
(Tim Miller)
And he was discussing about how the greatest cancellation that he's been familiar with is the sitting president getting canceled from Facebook and Twitter.
17:22:
(Tim Miller)
Oh, so I don't it's unclear.
17:25:
(Tim Miller)
Obviously, as you know, the current sitting president is on Facebook and Twitter.
17:29:
(Tim Miller)
So, you know, depending on how you read it, I think maybe he's being a little clever there because I guess technically he was sitting president when Twitter canceled him, you know, after he tried to overthrow the election there.
17:43:
(Tim Miller)
There was the 13 day window.
17:44:
(Tim Miller)
So maybe that's what he was referencing.
17:46:
(Tim Miller)
Um, but, but yeah, I mean, he went on a, I mean, this is so, I mean, this it's, the speech was literally at like a second grade level as you're waiting for Liz to talk.
17:55:
(Tim Miller)
I mean, it's, he's talking about how everything, our second amendment's been canceled and cancel culture now encompasses everything.
18:02:
(Tim Miller)
Everything.
18:04:
(JVL)
It's like communism and socialism.
18:07:
(JVL)
The American Rescue Plan is socialism.
18:11:
(Tim Miller)
If your door dash doesn't come on time, that's cancel culture.
18:16:
(Tim Miller)
The whole deal.
18:16:
(Tim Miller)
So yeah, this is not...
18:19:
(Tim Miller)
So, right.
18:20:
(Tim Miller)
I guess it goes back to your point of, like, it doesn't – who cares if you lose your committee assignments, right?
18:26:
(Tim Miller)
I mean, it's not like there's any serious business that's happening there in the House minority or even when they get into the majority.
18:36:
(JVL)
So what happens with the 30% of Republicans who say that they agree with Cheney just on the 2 plus 2 equals 4 aspect of the 2020 election?
18:51:
(JVL)
It's a lot of people.
18:53:
(JVL)
Presumably that's 15 million people maybe, maybe more.
19:00:
(JVL)
What happens to those people?
19:02:
(JVL)
This is a persistent topic of discussion between you, me, and Sarah.
19:07:
(JVL)
Sarah, if she were here, would say, those people are gettable.
19:11:
(JVL)
I talked to hundreds of those people, and I'm telling you.
19:14:
(JVL)
They just don't pay close enough attention, and they are misled by the toxic media and their leaders.
19:20:
(JVL)
And we can get to them, and we don't have to get all of them.
19:24:
(JVL)
All you have to do is peel 3% of them away.
19:28:
(JVL)
And she's not wrong in many ways, right?
19:31:
(JVL)
I mean, this was the whole RVAT project, which probably saved the election for the Democrats by getting the people that you needed in the key states.
19:42:
(Tim Miller)
Those same people could go back.
19:44:
(Tim Miller)
By the way, the ARVAT people, they're just as likely to go back.
19:47:
(Tim Miller)
I'm telling you, this is the part that's so frustrating.
19:52:
(Tim Miller)
Because I was looking through statements of these people in the House, like the actual representatives, saying, well, I agree with Liz Cheney.
20:01:
(Tim Miller)
There's a handful of them who live in safe enough swing districts to say, John Curtis from Utah.
20:07:
(Tim Miller)
Well, Liz Cheney's right about the election, but she's not doing a good job of focusing on the real enemy.
20:13:
(Tim Miller)
I mean, that's what this is all about.
20:16:
(Tim Miller)
And so, yeah, I'm sure 3% of them are potential to cleave off.
20:21:
(Tim Miller)
But is it about this?
20:22:
(Tim Miller)
And this is the thing that just makes me want to pull my hair out because it doesn't politically.
20:28:
(Tim Miller)
I'm just not sure it's that potent.
20:31:
(Tim Miller)
I mean, are you under the impression that there are a lot of people out there that are going to be moved by the fact that the entire House Republican leadership voted to overturn our democracy?
20:42:
(Tim Miller)
I mean, you would think that'd be like a 90 to 10 issue.
20:45:
(Tim Miller)
But do you see any evidence that there are Donald Trump supporters that are now leaving the party because Elise Stefanik, Steve Scalise, and Kevin McCarthy are all insurrectionists?
21:00:
(Tim Miller)
I don't see any evidence.
21:02:
(JVL)
And nor do you see any evidence that conservatives are going to hop off the train because Elise Stefanik, right?
21:08:
(JVL)
I mean, you see some pushback that started in the last couple of days about the idea that Elise Stefanik is a rhino.
21:14:
(JVL)
But that's not going to hurt them.
21:16:
(JVL)
This is, you know, everything about this feels like heads they win, tails we lose.
21:24:
(JVL)
And I don't understand that when, you know, Democrats are winning, won the presidency, won the popular vote by 7 million votes.
21:31:
(JVL)
That's a lot of votes.
21:32:
(JVL)
7 million vote margin is really big.
21:36:
(JVL)
They control both houses of Congress.
21:38:
(JVL)
That's really important.
21:39:
(JVL)
And yet, like, everywhere you turn, it's like, nope, sorry.
21:44:
(Tim Miller)
Nope, nope, nobody, nope, nope.
21:45:
(Tim Miller)
Trump, in a lot of ways, made it easier for all this to happen, right?
21:48:
(Tim Miller)
Because he was so insane and so crazy, and they found ways to justify that.
21:52:
(Tim Miller)
That made it much easier to rationalize and justify all this stuff leading up to this.
21:57:
(Tim Miller)
I mean, you look at the types of conservative commentators who were, like, marginally anti-Trump.
22:06:
(Tim Miller)
um and you know your your people have voted for edmund burke types and and you know they're out there talking about how like well the economy was doing great under trump and now joe biden's uh you know there's this ben shapiro tweet about oh look at the joe biden administration there's vaccine skepticism is up and
22:23:
(Tim Miller)
The economy had a bad jobs month, and the Middle East is at war.
22:27:
(Tim Miller)
I mean, Ben Shapiro was never trumped five years ago.
22:30:
(Tim Miller)
They now have, after having spent years justifying the most insane and just incompetent and bigoted actions imaginable, think about how easy it is to justify being for Elise Stefanik and Kevin McCarthy retaking the House.
22:47:
(Tim Miller)
I mean, all they did was vote to overturn the election, whatever.
22:50:
(Tim Miller)
Did they really mean it?
22:51:
(Tim Miller)
Kind of, sort of.
22:53:
(Tim Miller)
and i think that this is where your voter if you look at the average voter i just try to think in my mind's eye everybody has this person in their life the wall street journal ed board republican right like this voter who who is just temperamentally conservative older white guy gets is getting their news from the wall street journal ed board
23:15:
(Tim Miller)
I mean, they're voting for Republicans in the midterm.
23:19:
(Tim Miller)
They're not leaving Republicans over their attempt to overturn the democracy.
23:25:
(Tim Miller)
And these people literally will need autocracy to happen to come to their senses.
23:31:
(Tim Miller)
Well, but even them are like, sure, sure, the autocracy is bad.
23:34:
(Tim Miller)
Look at the Democrats.
23:35:
(Crosstalk)
Franco is pretty good.
23:36:
(Crosstalk)
Look at the Democrats.
23:37:
(Crosstalk)
You know, I mean, hey, Franco.
23:38:
(JVL)
All right, enough wallowing on this.
23:41:
(JVL)
Do you want to talk a little bit about the China stuff?
23:46:
(Tim Miller)
I do, because I'd like to rant about liberals for once.
23:49:
(Tim Miller)
Ooh.
23:51:
(JVL)
Ooh.
23:51:
(JVL)
Well, let me put a quarter in the machine.
23:53:
(JVL)
Go, Tim.
23:55:
(Tim Miller)
Well, I liked your trend piece, which was, who was the reporter that was analyzing the different theories about the origins of the virus?
24:05:
(Tim Miller)
Maybe Nicholas Wade?
24:06:
(Tim Miller)
Yeah, it was Nicholas Wade.
24:08:
(Tim Miller)
And it was a dense, if you haven't read, it was JBL's Your Tribe ad from what, Monday?
24:11:
(Tim Miller)
I think so, yeah.
24:14:
(Tim Miller)
The article, I did my best to wade through it, and I was not good at science in college, so I have a limited skill set here, and so I don't want to imply on this vaunted Bulldog Plus podcast that I know what the origin was of the Wuhan virus, or the virus that came out of Wuhan, because I don't have any idea.
24:33:
(Tim Miller)
But if you read people who are really smart about this,
24:39:
(Tim Miller)
It sure seems to me like it's an open question and that there's not that it's not really, you know, there's not any reason to believe that one answer is certain and that another alternative answer is a conspiracy.
24:54:
(Tim Miller)
And this is a virus that has killed millions of people throughout the country or throughout the world.
25:00:
(Tim Miller)
And it's going to kill millions more.
25:02:
(Tim Miller)
Yet still, it seems like an important question to understand the answer to.
25:08:
(Tim Miller)
And yet, when you even suggest the possibility that the virus might not have emanated from animals in southern, whatever it is, southeastern, southwestern China, many, many miles from Wuhan, that you're like a conspiracist.
25:29:
(Tim Miller)
You're a conspiracy theorist.
25:30:
(Tim Miller)
It's like, I don't understand, and I think this is, even in the center left, I see this among smart people.
25:36:
(Tim Miller)
It's like, just because Tom Cotton got out over his skis and called this a biological weapon or something in March of last year, now means that having a nuanced view about the possibility that this could have originated in the lab at the Wuhan Institute,
25:55:
(Tim Miller)
It now makes you like Lin Wood, a crazy conspiracist.
25:59:
(Tim Miller)
It's like, yeah, Tom Cotton is kind of a hee-haw boob.
26:06:
(Tim Miller)
But hee-haw boobs get stuff right by accident.
26:08:
(Tim Miller)
And in this case, you're not even saying that he's right with the claim that it was a biological weapon.
26:15:
(Tim Miller)
It's just saying that the part where it might have originated from a biological experiment might be right.
26:21:
(Tim Miller)
And so now, today, you've got Rand Paul, who's just an asshole, asking Dr. Fauci questions about this.
26:31:
(Tim Miller)
And Dr. Fauci is really bristling and not being forthcoming with his answers.
26:38:
(Tim Miller)
And you go on social media and everybody on the left in my feed is like, Dr. Fauci owns Rand Paul.
26:45:
(Tim Miller)
And everybody on the right is like, Rand Paul owns Dr. Fauci.
26:48:
(Tim Miller)
And it's like, isn't the truth that we're trying to figure out the answer here?
26:53:
(Tim Miller)
I don't know that either of them were owned.
26:56:
(JVL)
Yeah, this has been a negative partisanship moment.
27:05:
(JVL)
So right off the bat, you had a bunch of scientific establishment types rush out to say, definitely crossed over in the wild from animals to humans.
27:17:
(JVL)
Some of those people we now know had conflicts of interest.
27:23:
(JVL)
Even if they hadn't, they were way too confident, right?
27:27:
(JVL)
You should always be a little bit nervous about people who say categorically that this thing we know for sure, especially when things are very difficult to know for sure or when the sources of information for them, such as the Chinese government and the Chinese medical establishment, are wildly unreliable, right?
27:46:
(JVL)
That should set off alarm bells for everybody.
27:48:
(JVL)
It set them off for me.
27:50:
(JVL)
But the problem is that at the same time, so you had two camps, one which was a bunch of scientific establishment types in places like Nature and the Lancet saying, this is absolutely from the animal kingdom.
28:07:
(JVL)
And the other side, you had a bunch of people like Alex Jones saying, this is a biological weapon unleashed by the...
28:14:
(JVL)
And so, you know, you're sitting there and you're thinking, Jesus, I got to pick one or the other.
28:18:
(JVL)
Right.
28:19:
(JVL)
And that that is what the problem was from the very early part.
28:26:
(JVL)
You did not have a lot of people like Nicholas Wade saying unclear.
28:33:
(JVL)
You could not find a lot of people saying unclear.
28:39:
(JVL)
I did.
28:40:
(JVL)
I raised my hand.
28:41:
(Tim Miller)
You said unclear?
28:41:
(JVL)
Yeah, I've been writing about this since.
28:43:
(Tim Miller)
I said one of my friends is a doctor, and I was ranting about this at brunch this weekend because we can go to brunch now, outside brunch.
28:50:
(Tim Miller)
I'm an elder millennial who brunches.
28:53:
(Tim Miller)
and um he's a virologist so i was kind of ranting about this i'm like am i crazy before i start you know going off about this on a podcast and and and he was like no i thought that right away and his his his husband said yeah he told me that when it happened and so i tweeted it and then all these assholes like red steez retweet retweet
29:15:
(Tim Miller)
and my entire feed was like it was far-right conservatives you know and like conspiracists talking about how like this this means that this was a biological weapon and I did he's like I had to delete it because like my mentions just became a just complete dumpster fire of insanity and and so you know I mean there were people that observed it but that that you know that there was a disincentive to make this point
29:43:
(Tim Miller)
Because you end up getting on the wrong side of, you know, the mob.
29:49:
(JVL)
Yeah.
29:49:
(JVL)
And also, I mean, this, at least in the early stages, was a largely academic conversation, right?
29:56:
(JVL)
I mean, where it came from did not matter in terms of how we managed the outbreak.
30:00:
(JVL)
It still doesn't matter in terms of how we manage the outbreak.
30:03:
(JVL)
It will matter once we get past this and start doing after-action reports.
30:08:
(Tim Miller)
you would think let's just can i just interrupt this is the kind of thing that you think like i don't know maybe we should try to figure out the truth so we don't do it again well i mean millions of people are dead it is impossible to get the truth
30:22:
(JVL)
There is no way to get the truth.
30:24:
(JVL)
Nobody will ever know.
30:25:
(JVL)
It would be hard enough if this all originated in a country like Japan or America.
30:30:
(JVL)
But coming out of an authoritarian hellscape, nobody will ever know.
30:36:
(JVL)
The flow of information from there and the trustworthiness that you can put on any information coming out of the Chinese regime is basically nil.
30:47:
(JVL)
And here's the other part, right?
30:50:
(JVL)
What are you going to do about it anyway?
30:52:
(JVL)
I mean, this is the surest sign that the country has achieved.
30:55:
(Tim Miller)
Learn some lessons, best practices, maybe stop doing certain types of research.
31:03:
(JVL)
It seems to me like you could come up with some things you could do if you learned.
31:07:
(JVL)
Good luck.
31:07:
(JVL)
I mean, look, if it was lab escape,
31:10:
(Tim Miller)
You know, I mean, this is the a lot of talks about how the different the lab, you know, in China, they were doing, you know, whatever level two security versus level four.
31:22:
(JVL)
We could change that with an authoritarian.
31:25:
(JVL)
We can change it now.
31:26:
(JVL)
You could say, boy, boy, chai comms.
31:29:
(JVL)
We really want you to change this.
31:31:
(JVL)
And they say, OK.
31:32:
(JVL)
What are you going to do?
31:34:
(JVL)
As I said in my piece, this is a government which, within living memory, starved to death tens of millions of its own citizens intentionally.
31:45:
(JVL)
They right now have somewhere between a million and a half and three million Uyghurs and other assorted religious minorities in concentration camps.
31:53:
(JVL)
This is not like dealing with Poland.
31:59:
(JVL)
This is not like dealing with... Poland's pretty bad right now, but yeah.
32:03:
(JVL)
Poland's pretty bad.
32:04:
(JVL)
But you're saying this is not like dealing with a normal first world country where you could say, we're going to put some sanctions on you.
32:09:
(JVL)
And China is too big to fail as a component of the world economy.
32:14:
(JVL)
Well, here's one thing that we could change.
32:18:
(Tim Miller)
is that people living in the coalition of the decent and the rational that are trying to defend our democracy cannot adopt a but-he-fights attitude about everything.
32:36:
(Tim Miller)
Yeah.
32:37:
(Tim Miller)
You know, like that's one thing that we can do.
32:38:
(Tim Miller)
And I think that this could maybe just be a lesson point of saying, okay, you know, let's try to be, let's try to be fact-based and be open to debate and discussion, like about something as important as this.
32:51:
(Tim Miller)
I understand that there's, you know, strategic value sometimes and minimizing your own, you know, little flaws, especially when the other side is such a deep threat as they are in this country right now.
33:02:
(Tim Miller)
But like...
33:03:
(Tim Miller)
It has been really kind of crazy to me that something that is this serious has become that.
33:12:
(JVL)
Yeah, but you have to understand that that reaction is a byproduct of the crazy, right?
33:18:
(JVL)
I mean, you have the President of the United States telling people that the pandemic isn't serious and that the number of infected people is going to go to zero.
33:27:
(JVL)
And by the way, this is probably all Chinese plot and...
33:31:
(JVL)
I mean, I hate to say you have to have been there, but there is a difference between like 10 years from now looking back on this and saying, why weren't people more forthcoming?
33:43:
(JVL)
And having lived through it in a moment where everybody was trying to get the president of the United States to stop taking actions and saying things that were going to lead to the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Americans.
33:55:
(JVL)
Yeah.
33:55:
(Tim Miller)
I think that's part of it.
33:56:
(Tim Miller)
Do you think that – I have a question for you, though.
33:58:
(Tim Miller)
Do you think that another part of it is that people are afraid to say – people were afraid to point the finger at China on this because of the potential fallout, especially with Donald Trump in there, that who knows, we have this erratic president, and that if it is true that –
34:19:
(Tim Miller)
This came out of a lab that he might do something stupid, like bomb them.
34:24:
(Tim Miller)
And then we're in a hot war with China.
34:25:
(Tim Miller)
Do you think fear of that?
34:27:
(Tim Miller)
Or do you think it was all just negative partisanship all the way down?
34:30:
(JVL)
Well, here's the fear aspect of it is that it is much more comforting to believe that it comes from the wild.
34:38:
(JVL)
Right?
34:38:
(JVL)
The lab escape hypothesis is kind of terrifying.
34:41:
(JVL)
It is much more comforting to believe that these things manifest organically.
34:45:
(JVL)
Because then it's just an act of God.
34:47:
(JVL)
Then it's like an earthquake or something.
34:52:
(JVL)
The idea that a government had this thing happen to them and then cover it up is terrifying.
35:00:
(JVL)
And especially, again, when there's no solution, then there is no problem.
35:04:
(JVL)
What are you going to do about it?
35:06:
(JVL)
And also, we were at a moment when, early on in the pandemic, we're really relying on the Chinese for a bunch of information.
35:16:
(JVL)
Which was bad.
35:18:
(JVL)
And I'm not saying, when I say we were relying on, I mean that they were a source, they were a pipeline of important information and we had no alternative pipelines.
35:26:
(JVL)
And so, you know, I mean, you would like to think that maybe you're getting some, even though, again, I think everybody who's responsible understood, even at the time, that you cannot trust anything you're getting out of that government.
35:38:
(Tim Miller)
Yeah, I don't know.
35:39:
(Tim Miller)
Part of it for me would be...
35:43:
(Tim Miller)
Comfort is maybe the wrong word, but there's a level of importance in just not necessarily pointing fingers and pointing blame and just saying, actually, this was human error, right?
35:54:
(Tim Miller)
This was a result of human error.
35:56:
(Tim Miller)
And I think that if you looked at everybody at the beginning of the pandemic, we were all obsessed with that Chernobyl documentary, right?
36:01:
(Tim Miller)
And it's like...
36:03:
(Tim Miller)
At times, maybe it's worthy of a reminder of seriousness.
36:07:
(Tim Miller)
I think we live in very frivolous times.
36:10:
(Tim Miller)
And, you know, that individuals' choices and decisions matter, right?
36:17:
(Tim Miller)
And we've gone through this period where a lot of people have made really...
36:21:
(Tim Miller)
frivolous choices that were in places of power and I don't know maybe there could be like a little lesson like we give to kindergartners that come from this that like hey just because you're a middle manager at a lab doesn't mean that you can half-ass it today because it might turn into the coronavirus
36:40:
(JVL)
Yeah.
36:41:
(JVL)
You sort of actually have said this better than I was trying to say.
36:44:
(JVL)
I think an earthquake is an earthquake.
36:47:
(JVL)
It's an act of God.
36:48:
(JVL)
The idea that somebody could cause an earthquake by accident, like a person could cause an earthquake, that's terrifying.
36:54:
(JVL)
We don't want to live in a world.
36:57:
(JVL)
Where some middle manager at a lab leaves a fridge open, doesn't close the fridge all the way, and you wind up with 3 million people dead.
37:08:
(JVL)
That's terrifying to think that you live in a world that works that way.
37:12:
(JVL)
Because this, I did say this, and I think I believe it, it is hard to imagine this many people would have died worldwide had China started an actual war.
37:26:
(JVL)
I mean, if China just decides to invade Taiwan, I think fewer people total die than have died as a result of the pandemic.
37:34:
(JVL)
And yet that would cause China to become an international pariah.
37:38:
(JVL)
And as it happens, they will face no repercussions at all from the way in which they manage the pandemic.
37:45:
(Tim Miller)
While we're being dark about the pandemic.
37:49:
(JVL)
Boy, we really miss Sarah on this show.
37:52:
(JVL)
I don't even know if we should release this episode.
37:54:
(Crosstalk)
So I've been rereading.
37:55:
(JVL)
Should we start the doors in the background?
37:57:
(JVL)
This is the end.
38:00:
(Tim Miller)
Here's the funny thing about all this.
38:01:
(Tim Miller)
Wasn't it?
38:02:
(Tim Miller)
I think it was on last week's live stream that I was like, I'm going to be positive next week.
38:05:
(Tim Miller)
I'm going to be positive on the live stream tomorrow night.
38:08:
(Tim Miller)
I'm going to be positive because here's why people are here in California.
38:13:
(Tim Miller)
People are smiling.
38:14:
(Tim Miller)
Not in every, some places people are still wearing all their masks outside, which, you know, to each their own, but, but in, in the places where you can see their face, uh,
38:21:
(Tim Miller)
People are smiling.
38:23:
(Tim Miller)
We're able to go back to brunch.
38:25:
(Tim Miller)
We were outside at Golden Gate Park this weekend, and you can just sense the joy.
38:29:
(Tim Miller)
Biden's popularity is ticking up a little bit, though I don't really trust the polls right now.
38:36:
(Tim Miller)
I don't think Donald Trump supporters are answering polls.
38:38:
(Tim Miller)
But his numbers are good.
38:40:
(Tim Miller)
The economy is coming back.
38:42:
(Tim Miller)
Not a great month, but it's good.
38:43:
(Tim Miller)
So I want to be positive, but it's just you and me.
38:46:
(Tim Miller)
So we're going to be negative.
38:47:
(Tim Miller)
I enjoyed this.
38:48:
(Tim Miller)
I was rereading American Carnage, which was Tim Alberta's book.
38:51:
(Tim Miller)
about how everything got so dark in the party.
38:54:
(Tim Miller)
And I just had to laugh about something that John, kind of this macabre laugh about something that John Boehner said, which in the book, which was a view that I also used to hold, which was that for the party to be saved, it's going to take an intervening event for Americans to realize that.
39:14:
(Tim Miller)
Something cataclysmic, Boehner responds, gazing upward.
39:18:
(Tim Miller)
And that was a view I used to hold.
39:20:
(Tim Miller)
And then the intervening event happened.
39:22:
(Tim Miller)
It was cataclysmic.
39:23:
(Tim Miller)
600,000 Americans died.
39:26:
(Tim Miller)
And the fuckers all said that it was a hoax.
39:29:
(Tim Miller)
I mean, I just, I do think, like, as we look back at this with that, it really is dour.
39:39:
(JVL)
door this is this is decadence this is fall of rome stuff this is end of empires and the you know as as has a very wise man once said peace has cost you your strength victory has defeated you this is this is what has happened to america and uh hey to our canadian listeners i would love to come up to canadia and
40:05:
(JVL)
I think living in Canada would just be fabulous.
40:08:
(Tim Miller)
They're struggling with the vaccine.
40:09:
(Tim Miller)
So, you know, they're not exactly.
40:11:
(JVL)
They have a couple of years before the next putch over here.
40:15:
(Tim Miller)
I want to go south.
40:17:
(Tim Miller)
It's chilly up there.
40:18:
(Tim Miller)
Have you ever been to Canada?
40:20:
(Tim Miller)
I went to try to go to Toronto for work in January one time.
40:23:
(Tim Miller)
It is dark.
40:25:
(Tim Miller)
I get seasonal affective disorder.
40:26:
(Tim Miller)
You know, there's got to be like an island somewhere that we could, you know, go to.
40:31:
(Tim Miller)
How are things in Turks and Caicos?
40:34:
(Tim Miller)
Turks and Caicos.
40:35:
(Tim Miller)
I like Canada.
40:36:
(Tim Miller)
You do?
40:37:
(JVL)
I like the people.
40:37:
(JVL)
They're all very nice.
40:39:
(Tim Miller)
I like it in, like, July.
40:40:
(Tim Miller)
Stuart Stevens said to me after Trump won in 2016, he has a place, I guess, in Quebec City.
40:47:
(Tim Miller)
And so he said, if the purge really happens with the Never Trumpers, you can escape to cross the border to my cabin in Quebec City.
40:54:
(Tim Miller)
I've got a room for you.
40:56:
(Tim Miller)
And I was like, if the purge happens, I'm going the opposite way.
41:01:
(JVL)
What's Canada's immigration policy on America?
41:03:
(JVL)
Pretty great, I think.
41:04:
(JVL)
Will they take us?
41:05:
(Tim Miller)
I think so.
41:07:
(Tim Miller)
We took Peter Jennings.
41:08:
(Tim Miller)
They could take me.
41:09:
(Tim Miller)
We're taking Mark Stein.
41:10:
(Tim Miller)
He came all the way down here and now he wants to shut the border.
41:15:
(Tim Miller)
Not let any more beady-eyed Canadians come down and follow him down.
41:18:
(JVL)
All right.
41:19:
(JVL)
So it's been very dark and I feel bad and that's because we didn't have Sarah.
41:22:
(JVL)
Everything is better with Sarah.
41:24:
(JVL)
But since it's just the boys, is there anything we would like to spend two minutes on that we could not do with Sarah here?
41:32:
(JVL)
Do you want to talk a little bit of sports ball?
41:35:
(JVL)
Do you want to talk about superhero movies?
41:39:
(Tim Miller)
I'll talk about sports ball or superhero movies or, you know, private time the boys spend in the bathroom.
41:47:
(Tim Miller)
What happens in there?
41:48:
(Tim Miller)
WWE?
41:48:
(JVL)
Want to talk some WWE stuff?
41:50:
(JVL)
I'm not really up to speed on the latest with WWE.
41:52:
(JVL)
That's okay.
41:53:
(JVL)
So tell me about your Denver Nuggets, briefly.
41:56:
(JVL)
Here's happy talk.
41:58:
(JVL)
Here's happy talk.
41:58:
(Tim Miller)
Well, not really, actually, because Jamal Murray tore his ACL, and so everything was clicking for the Nuggets.
42:06:
(Tim Miller)
We had this moment...
42:07:
(Tim Miller)
We just had this just brief window, you know, like they do, you know, right before the darkness falls in a movie where everything's clicking.
42:18:
(Tim Miller)
We traded for Aaron Gordon, who's a wingman for the Orlando Magic.
42:23:
(Tim Miller)
He was just, all of his skills weren't being used in Orlando.
42:29:
(Tim Miller)
Orlando still has a team.
42:31:
(Tim Miller)
They do still have a team, and he was just wasting away down there.
42:35:
(Tim Miller)
And so we traded for him right at the deadline.
42:39:
(Tim Miller)
Things were clicking.
42:39:
(Tim Miller)
We were undefeated.
42:40:
(Tim Miller)
Then Jamal Murray goes down with his ACL injury.
42:43:
(Tim Miller)
So they'll be back next year.
42:45:
(Tim Miller)
But, man, I have to tell you, it is beautiful.
42:47:
(Tim Miller)
I was watching before we taped this on DVR.
42:50:
(Tim Miller)
I'm going to go back and finish it.
42:51:
(Tim Miller)
uh hornets charlotte hornets versus the nuggets game and it was the beautiful game charlotte's got lamello ball you know lavar you know lavar ball his children yeah lamello is the middle child um and he's playing for the hornets and he's just like it is just beautiful it is just beauty um i mean it just it gives me unpure thoughts to watch lamello ball lamello ball play and so he's on one end he's going against jokic who is a seven foot one point point center
43:20:
(Tim Miller)
The ball movement is really amazing.
43:24:
(Tim Miller)
Jokic is going to be the first center to win the MVP this year since Shaquille O'Neal.
43:30:
(Tim Miller)
He's putting up Larry Bird style numbers.
43:32:
(Tim Miller)
I tweeted this.
43:32:
(Tim Miller)
I compared Jokic's numbers to Larry Bird.
43:35:
(Tim Miller)
You can't get away with anything on Twitter these days.
43:37:
(Tim Miller)
And somebody replied and said that that was like, why didn't I compare him to a black person?
43:41:
(Tim Miller)
Was this racist?
43:43:
(Tim Miller)
And I was like, find me?
43:44:
(Tim Miller)
Find me a non-white person that was 27, 10, and 8 in a season.
43:49:
(Tim Miller)
I'm happy to compare him to somebody else.
43:50:
(Tim Miller)
These are just peak Larry Bird numbers.
43:53:
(Tim Miller)
He's averaging 27 points a game, 10 rebounds, 8 assists.
43:58:
(Tim Miller)
Are the Nugs not going to the playoffs?
44:00:
(Tim Miller)
We'll be in the playoffs.
44:01:
(Tim Miller)
Yeah, we're going to be the third or fourth seed.
44:03:
(Tim Miller)
Well, the Mavericks are the trailblazers in the first round.
44:06:
(Tim Miller)
And they could still have a path through.
44:08:
(Tim Miller)
But Murray is really, you know, in the playoffs, you just need more scoring options.
44:14:
(Tim Miller)
Right now, we've got Michael Porter Jr., who is shooting just the lights out.
44:18:
(Tim Miller)
I mean, he has the purest shot in the league.
44:20:
(Tim Miller)
He's like a taller Clay Thompson.
44:23:
(Tim Miller)
You know, he's like, imagine if Ray Allen, I'm trying to go from your era of NBA.
44:27:
(Tim Miller)
Imagine if Ray Allen was 6'10".
44:31:
(Tim Miller)
6-10 rounds.
44:31:
(Tim Miller)
So he just shoots over people.
44:32:
(Tim Miller)
He's got just this beautiful shot.
44:34:
(Tim Miller)
So we're going to be back next year.
44:36:
(Tim Miller)
I think we would have won the Western Conference this year.
44:39:
(Tim Miller)
The Nets now have created a super team with KD and Harden and Kyrie.
44:45:
(Tim Miller)
I think they would have been tough to beat in the finals.
44:47:
(Tim Miller)
I think they're the clear favorite right now.
44:50:
(Tim Miller)
But I think we were the favorite.
44:51:
(Tim Miller)
Maybe neck and neck with the Lakers to come out of the Western Conference.
44:56:
(Tim Miller)
And they're all young.
44:57:
(Tim Miller)
Jokic is 26.
44:59:
(Tim Miller)
Murray is, I think, 24.
45:03:
(Tim Miller)
MPJ is 21.
45:05:
(Tim Miller)
Gordon's only 25.
45:06:
(Tim Miller)
Excuse me?
45:08:
(Tim Miller)
How are his feet?
45:09:
(Tim Miller)
Guys like Jokic, you always worry about the feet.
45:12:
(Tim Miller)
Jokic is a machine.
45:13:
(Tim Miller)
Everybody in the NBA has been hurt this year because they did these assholes because of the Olympics.
45:19:
(Tim Miller)
And because last year the season got delayed when the virus came in.
45:23:
(Tim Miller)
So they shortened and they didn't want to extend this season into the summer because of the Olympics.
45:28:
(Tim Miller)
So they shortened the season to 72 games, but jammed them into like two-thirds of the days.
45:34:
(Tim Miller)
So like every team has injuries.
45:36:
(Tim Miller)
There's no star player that has not gotten injured at least once this year.
45:40:
(Tim Miller)
Except for Jokic, who's played in every single game.
45:43:
(Tim Miller)
It's almost been good for him because he's like this human jar of mayonnaise.
45:49:
(Tim Miller)
I mean, the idea that this physical specimen...
45:51:
(Tim Miller)
could be the most beautiful player in the league is really just i think throws people off guard he looks like he's playing and he's walking around in flip-flops and he and he's built like a jar of mayonnaise and and because he had to play so much in the condensed season he's now played himself into shape um for the first time like real shape
46:12:
(Tim Miller)
And so he's playing like 35, 36 minutes.
46:15:
(Tim Miller)
He doesn't seem to phase him.
46:17:
(Tim Miller)
His feet seem fine.
46:19:
(Tim Miller)
I mean, knock on wood furiously here, but he's been the only healthy one.
46:23:
(Tim Miller)
He's a freak of, he's a complete freak of nature.
46:25:
(Tim Miller)
And it's just going to be a joy.
46:28:
(Tim Miller)
He's going to be, you know, the...
46:32:
(Tim Miller)
uh the person like the franchise person that you always that you always think of and he has no ego it's hard to imagine it's not like he seems like the kind of person who wants to like go to LA seems like going to LA would make him want to kill himself honestly like he does he does not like having to do interviews he's just a dorky Serbian he likes to ride horses the poor horses
46:53:
(Tim Miller)
And so I think he's going to be there forever, and it's really a beautiful thing, and it's kind of emotional.
47:01:
(Tim Miller)
The Nuggets have not been very good over my lifetime, but we stuck with them.
47:07:
(Tim Miller)
We loved basketball in our family, and Jokic was our gift from the Serbian gods.
47:15:
(JVL)
That's beautiful.
47:15:
(Tim Miller)
I'm tearing up over here.
47:16:
(Tim Miller)
That's sports ball for you.
47:18:
(JVL)
Now that we're down to three listeners, I really feel like we got our money's worth out of having to do...
47:24:
(JVL)
If we had to do a show without Sarah, do you win as dark as we possibly could?
47:29:
(Tim Miller)
Do you want to do a WWE rant for me then?
47:32:
(Tim Miller)
No, no.
47:34:
(JVL)
I was going to ask you what you think of the idea of the super team.
47:38:
(JVL)
Because I am of two minds on super teams.
47:42:
(JVL)
I basically don't like them.
47:45:
(JVL)
I wish that the structure of the NBA did not allow for super teams.
47:52:
(Tim Miller)
But there's something about having an evil empire to beat, isn't there?
47:55:
(Tim Miller)
I don't know.
47:57:
(Tim Miller)
It bugs me that they go to the big markets.
48:00:
(Tim Miller)
That's the thing that does bother me about it.
48:05:
(JVL)
Well, and now that everybody's legalizing weed, Denver has lost its advantage.
48:08:
(Tim Miller)
Its competitive advantage.
48:09:
(Tim Miller)
Yeah.
48:10:
(Tim Miller)
So that bugs me.
48:12:
(Tim Miller)
And I do feel like what KD did when he lost to the Warriors.
48:21:
(Tim Miller)
So he's on the Thunder.
48:22:
(Tim Miller)
Do you remember this with Westbrook and Harden?
48:25:
(Tim Miller)
They take the Warriors that year to seven games, lose in game seven.
48:30:
(Tim Miller)
KD's an unrestricted free agent.
48:33:
(Tim Miller)
Then he signs with the Warriors.
48:35:
(Tim Miller)
I mean, that really, for me, that goes against the competitive spirit.
48:40:
(Tim Miller)
Yeah.
48:41:
(Tim Miller)
like the super teams in general go against the competitive syrup but that that feels like you know when you're when you're on your travel baseball team and like the the the two best kids decide to team up and get on the same team and start batting left-handed and beating everyone like that like nobody enjoys that it's not fun for anyone but did you do you remember the the year that gary payton and carl malone went to the lakers together
49:04:
(JVL)
uh late when they were late in their career and they they was like gotta get my ring gotta get my ring and uh things went horribly bad which was amazing wonderful to watch like this is what i the only super teams i like are dysfunctional super teams that lose yeah and uh there was a moment where you know a bunch of other people are fighting and gary payton walks out of the i loved gary payton god i love gary payton gary payton
49:30:
(JVL)
who's a no-nonsense guy, just walks out of the locker room and says, I did not sign up for this shit.
49:37:
(JVL)
You're like, I came here to get my ring.
49:39:
(JVL)
I did not sign up for all this diva bullshit in the locker room.
49:45:
(JVL)
And that I love.
49:45:
(JVL)
When the Miami Heat, the D-Wade, LeBron, Miami Heat failed to win their first match,
49:54:
(Tim Miller)
the title the first couple years spurs beat them in that finals with the classic gosh that was drove see it is nice to have the evil empire to root against that's the problem is the evil empires win now they do win so this is yeah they do i don't know i'm it's tough as having never been having been a fan of a franchise that has never been to to the finals never um
50:17:
(Tim Miller)
you know, there would be something so sweet about having a homegrown team that would go out and beat a super team, but at the same time, it might never happen for that reason, right?
50:29:
(Tim Miller)
So I'm also of both views, but it's sort of the thing, you know, now that I'm in middle age, it's like the, I guess, the only big thing left is
50:41:
(Tim Miller)
Like my other teams have won, right?
50:43:
(Tim Miller)
And so I guess my child's success, like you're experiencing right now with Flash, like a children's sports success, and the Nuggets getting over the hump with this young core, like that's it.
50:55:
(Tim Miller)
These are my sport victories that I have left in front of me.
51:00:
(Tim Miller)
And so the pain and the mountaintop of beating the super team, there's something to that.
51:06:
(JVL)
Let me share with you a piece of wisdom that I learned growing up in Philadelphia.
51:13:
(JVL)
You have to let go of the idea that you derive enjoyment in sports from watching your favorite teams win.
51:19:
(JVL)
Because that happens almost never.
51:23:
(JVL)
You've got to get all of your enjoyment from watching the teams you hate lose.
51:27:
(JVL)
Yeah.
51:28:
(JVL)
That is the path to true happiness.
51:32:
(Tim Miller)
I can't do it.
51:33:
(Tim Miller)
I can't do it.
51:35:
(Tim Miller)
It has diminishing returns.
51:38:
(Tim Miller)
Seeing others' pain has diminishing returns.
51:41:
(Tim Miller)
I like the happiness.
51:42:
(Tim Miller)
You get surprised.
51:43:
(JVL)
The delicacy.
51:45:
(Tim Miller)
Is it?
51:45:
(JVL)
It's a delicacy.
51:46:
(Tim Miller)
I don't know.
51:49:
(Tim Miller)
This is now where we do differ because I garner all my joy from other people's happiness.
51:55:
(Tim Miller)
I want other people to have happiness more than the schadenfreude.
51:59:
(Tim Miller)
I have a little bit.
52:01:
(Tim Miller)
We all have a hinge of schadenfreude, but the other people's happiness is really what I get up for.
52:06:
(Tim Miller)
The big sports moments I like is even having friends' teams or my little brother's alma mater win.
52:13:
(Tim Miller)
uh and i and i also am a sufferer like i want to suffer i you know i want to sort of just kind of just as we have on this podcast like i i gain some sort of dark joy out of going to the casino and getting slaughtered you know i get some dark joy out of like watching my team just have have victory taken from the jaws of defeat like i need that suffering because i i i'm because of the imaginary payoff in the future so i almost have have come to love the suffering
52:43:
(Tim Miller)
We are alike in many ways, but also very different.
52:47:
(JVL)
All right, Tim, good show.
52:49:
(JVL)
Catch you next week.